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Ir's limitations

Topic started by krishnan (@ uswgne11.uswest.com) on Wed Jul 8 15:52:59 EDT 1998.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

I know I am going to get a few bouncers.Let me start off any way & put
on a helmet.If one were to play with numbers, considering all of IR's
4000 plus songs ( atleast the popular ones) one could classify most of
them under 15 main ragas.( eg. mohanam, kalyani etc).I know of countless
songs he has done in mohanam & MMgowla.Well, one has to give dure credit
to him to have composed in nalinakanthi & kambiranattai.And how many
folk in sindhubhairavi.I understand that even a pure classical singer
limits himself to these standard ragas.That does not mean IR has to
tread on the same path ( applying these ragas).Well, has IR done in
umabharanam or dwijavanthi or any of the rare rags that dikshitar has
done.No comparisons here please.This is the challenge that lies ahead of
the future musicians.IR may have started on a western background, &
started to pick up on carnatic later ( with the help of TVG).I would
like to see him do more on some rare ragas.No more
mohanam,kalyani,S.bhairavi please.

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: rajaG (@ daecfp02.sprint.com) on: Tue Apr 11 11:35:29 EDT 2000
  
  Udhaya: Your observations on Subbudu's interview are straight out of my heart!!!
  
  
• From: rjay (@ brkfw0005.navistar.com) on: Tue Apr 11 13:54:08 EDT 2000
  
  rajaG
  
  I think com-posing means putting together!
  And even if others play excellent pieces,
  to put them together into an emotionally
  connected and moving whole, is what composing
  is all about.
  
  I agree with your perspective very much.
  
  To Udhaya's point, let us not try to find
  sources of someone's talent. That will only
  reveal our biases.
  
  If Raja and Rahman believe that God is the
  source of their tunes and talent, even then
  we dont have to take it as true. Lots of physical
  and mental exercise and learnings happen, before
  it all gets subconsciouly tied together into
  the scoring genius. It is not like pray for
  40 days and you get all skills.
  
  From my own experience, more appropriate
  would be "slog for 100 days and pray for 2 days,
  a tune might emerge", is a good model of
  creativity. And I see devotion to God/Music
  is a good way of discipling the subconscious
  to perform on order. But then before it can be
  disciplined, a subconscious must go wild and
  reach far. Discipline a horse and you get
  a ride. Discipline a cow and you get only milk.
  (summa thamashukku!)
  
  
• From: haris (@ inet-fw2-o.oracle.com) on: Tue Apr 11 14:15:44 EDT 2000
  
  rjay, Quote starts.. I think com-posing means putting together! And even if others play excellent pieces, to put them together into an emotionally connected and
  moving whole, is what composing is all about. Quote ends... ARR ungala eppadi ellAm pEsa vechittAr paarunga.. - putting together others excellent
  pieces - composing-Am.. appO, madonna, MJ, Hammer, beethovan, IR, deva, karuppAyi.. yAru nalla piece pOttAlum adha onnu chEkkaradhu thAn
  composingA?? ( remix-nu nenachittu irundhEn..)
  
  
• From: Neels (@ 202.9.139.105) on: Tue Apr 11 14:49:22 EDT 2000
  
  'Ninnaye Ratiyendru' a Mahakavi Bharati song was set to music by MSV in Kalyana Vasantam. It's a Rahman, Amala starrer(I forgot the movie). IR has used Chandrakauns, a close relative of KalyanaVasantam in some songs, notably 'Azhagu Malar Aada' from 'Vaidehi KaathirundaaL'.
  
  Srikanth, I don't think Madhuvanti is the same as Dharmavati, but an offspring of Dharmavati. (there's no Panchamam, just like Kalyana Vasantam differs from Chandrakauns, I think).
  'NandA En Nila' by MSV (SPB's superb rendition makes this one of my favorites) is also set to Madhuvanti.
  Dharmavati has been used very creatively by IR in many a number. 'Hey AyyaSAmi' from Varusham 16 is one instance. A semi-classical song in Dappanguthu style.. notably one of the best uses of Thavil. Contrast that with 'Konji Konji' from Veera.
  
  Udhaya,
  I too felt the same after reading Subbudu's comments. Going by the same argument, any Raga should not be tampered with! So, what happens to light music? Great MDs like MSV and IR can vouch for that!
  
  I agree with Subbudu on some aspects, like when he says, "rhythm is ARR's forte and melody is IR's".
  But as for his comments on 'Mukkal Monahal Kanraavi songs' with 'dappa' lyrics like Hamma Hamma, IR has given them in spades! No body can beat the 'mukkal' song of all times, 'NEthu RAthiri Yamma'...
  
  Talking of religion and spirituality, there's no denying the fact that IR's devotion comes out in his music. He considers it not just as a profession, but a spiritual experience. And ARR too, is very 'religious' and does take his job seriously. He may have his limitations, and like somebody pointed out, does things in 'parts' and 'bits' (which can sometimes get to your nerves when you want the melody to flow smoothly).. but no body can deny that he is very talented and has consciously or unconsciously brought in this trend. And is being lapped up by the Junta.
  
  Contrary to what Subbudu says, there are instances when I have in fact admired ARR's disciplined approach in certain songs like 'Malargale Malargale'(Love Birds) and 'Thoda Thoda Malarndadenna'(Indira) just as I have enjoyed IR's unorthodox approach to some numbers like 'Raajathi Raja' (Agni Natchatram) and 'Solladha RAgam Ennenna' (Mahanadhi).
  
  Criticism is most welcome, but one should not let his/her bias show, just as in the same magazine, director Ravi Kumar has childishly passed comments on IR's music.
  
  Since Subbudu has solicited feedback from the 'esteemed VAsagargaL', let's give it to him! NOW!
  
  Neels
  
  
  
• From: rjay (@ brkfw0005.navistar.com) on: Tue Apr 11 15:14:22 EDT 2000
  
  haris
  
  I said 'others play excellent pieces', not
  'others compose excellent pieces'. I think
  Rahman gives the melody framework gets them
  to express what they feel with that piece of
  melody. As rajaG says he treats musicians
  to be as important and creative as singers are.
  
  From Ilayaraja's TV interview (on some website)
  I got the impression that his intent was mainly
  to make his musicians understand what he wanted
  and get it out of them. There is nothing wrong with it, but I think no body can doubt that
  Rahman inspires the musicians even more than that
  and learns from them. It is a different model of
  music making.
  
  Regarding-'Rahman ungalae eppadi ellam pesa vechittar'- ivvalavu neenga nondhu poga vendam!
  I express what I think and I owe equal
  to MSV, KVM, Raja and Rahman!
  
  Music is not a zero-sum game. Appreciating the
  products and methods of Rahman does not mean
  we are belittling earlier composers.
  
  
• From: rjay (@ brkfw0005.navistar.com) on: Tue Apr 11 15:17:50 EDT 2000
  
  Neels
  
  The beautiful, Nanda En Nila is not by MSV,
  but by a malayalam MD - (Devarajan? or someone
  else). One day in India I was channel switching
  my cable TV and saw an old man with white
  bird singing Nanda
  En Nila's winding melody line in Thamizh in Asia
  Net. I was shocked to see such an old Keralite
  fan for SPB/MSV songs. He finished and said
  in Malayalam that he composed it.
  
  I realized MDs from other states also compose good music!
  ;)
  
  
• From: rjay (@ brkfw0005.navistar.com) on: Tue Apr 11 15:20:19 EDT 2000
  
  O sorry. He was an old man with White Beard,
  not white bird, as claimed by me!
  rjay
  
  
• From: rajaG (@ daecfp02.sprint.com) on: Tue Apr 11 15:35:37 EDT 2000
  
  rjay: Nanda En Nila is by DakshiNaamoorthy, a Keralite MD.
  
  rjay: neenga enna purinjunda maadhiri, maththavaa enna purinjundaa indha ulagam evvaLavu amaidhiyaa irukkum theriyumaa?:-) I think the similar sounding RJ and RG has something to do with it!
  
  
• From: Athi (@ wwwgate1.motorola.com) on: Tue Apr 11 19:45:33 EDT 2000
  
  I thought composing means bringing together various instrumental pieces that a person visualises.
  
  I think rjay has taken only the bringing together part from this and attributed that to ARR being a brilliant composer. Ofcourse ARR mixes various music samples nicely and records that to perfection. No wonder he is affectionately(!!!)
  called Automatic Recycling Rahman and Sound Engineer.
  
  Also what disturbs me more is people don't seem
  to find any defect in ARR's music and if they
  find any, conclude that even IR/MSV have done
  the same thing in their 20 or 30 year old careers. If ARR can have so many defects in his music in just 8 years, after 20 years his music will be
  unbearable to say the least(for everyone).Ofcourse for people like me, it is already like that and
  is definitely worth the hype that it gets.
  
  I think a general trend in this forum now has become "Praise ARR in all possible ways and blame IR for not having that and blame
  IR for ARR's defects". If someone tries to point out defects in ARR's music, he gets personally abused by everyone. This is not a healthy sign.
  
  Athi
  
  
• From: ECHO (@ hobbiton.org) on: Tue Apr 11 20:29:45 EDT 2000
  
  ARR doesnt havve any defect in his music, dont try to say he has one. If u find anything blame the guy who actually composed it.
  
  
• From: Athi (@ ip209.schiller-park8.il.pub-ip.psi.net) on: Tue Apr 11 22:52:38 EDT 2000
  
  Echo,
  
  Nice reading your comments. Be prepared
  to get abused(by the unbiased music lovers !!)
  An earlier tfm forum'r had that experience.
  People quoted the meaning of his name from
  dictitionary here just for his criticizing ARR.
  
  Athi
  
  
• From: MS (@ 129.252.26.235) on: Wed Apr 12 00:22:23 EDT 2000
  
  Athi:
  
  This is definitely a democratic forum and not a mortar where one grinds the same batter over and over. Rjay's intention seems to be enlightenment of ignorant people like me. What is your intention ? kudumi pidi saNdai ? or a meek submission/endorsement that "yes you are right" ? Once again your " No wonder ARR is Auto recycle Rahman " post has come up with its bad flavour. If you want to call him affectionately by that name please do. We have no problems. But please donot try for the nth time to tell us what nick you use with him. We have heard it more than once and it is getting sour.
  
  With age one improves and does not degrade. IR's orchestration was pretty hollow in his early stages. Did he not mature to GURU ? ARR is still learning and you are still abusing. Somethings never change.
  
  "Ofcourse ARR mixes various music samples nicely and records that to perfection."
  
  "If someone tries to point out defects in ARR's music, he gets personally abused by everyone. This is not a healthy sign."
  
  What defects have you listed in this posting ? My brains either are dumb enough not to recognize the content of your posting or vice versa. But I wonder if these statements mean just anything more than inanity.
  
  Sorry. NOM.
  
  
• From: S (@ netcache31.mot.com) on: Wed Apr 12 01:10:49 EDT 2000
  
  MS,
  
  >>Did he not mature to GURU ? <<
  I felt it was better before 87 and I found the Raja of early 80s i guru...
  In most of the cases (80s) his orchestration was not hollow as u say.
  
  

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