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Ir's limitations

Topic started by krishnan (@ uswgne11.uswest.com) on Wed Jul 8 15:52:59 EDT 1998.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

I know I am going to get a few bouncers.Let me start off any way & put
on a helmet.If one were to play with numbers, considering all of IR's
4000 plus songs ( atleast the popular ones) one could classify most of
them under 15 main ragas.( eg. mohanam, kalyani etc).I know of countless
songs he has done in mohanam & MMgowla.Well, one has to give dure credit
to him to have composed in nalinakanthi & kambiranattai.And how many
folk in sindhubhairavi.I understand that even a pure classical singer
limits himself to these standard ragas.That does not mean IR has to
tread on the same path ( applying these ragas).Well, has IR done in
umabharanam or dwijavanthi or any of the rare rags that dikshitar has
done.No comparisons here please.This is the challenge that lies ahead of
the future musicians.IR may have started on a western background, &
started to pick up on carnatic later ( with the help of TVG).I would
like to see him do more on some rare ragas.No more
mohanam,kalyani,S.bhairavi please.

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: vijay (@ 129.252.22.221) on: Sat Apr 8 14:04:56 EDT 2000
  
  Suresh,
  thank u.
  eden,
  raga in 'konji konji' is dharmavathi(iam not sure of any kalapadams) which was also used by ARR in 'ottagatha kattiko'.
  
  but another song of totally different mood in dharmavathy by Raja was in 'meendum meendum vaa' from vikram composed for an erotica-type song!
  
  this song is also used by Sun tv for its midnight masala program;))
  
  
• From: srikanth (@ wdslppp129.sttl.uswest.net) on: Sat Apr 8 18:06:16 EDT 2000
  
  vijay,
  btw: Dharmavathi was first used by msv in halo my dear wrong number (erotica-type) ,
  is there a pathos number in kalyani....
  have you heard the song Nan unnai azaika villai (old sivaji' song), do you know the raga.
  
  
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 129.252.22.221) on: Sat Apr 8 19:31:28 EDT 2000
  
  Srikanth,
  I have not heard 'hello my dear wrong number' even a few times(long time back), but I remember having read sometime back that it was set in Madhuvanti.
  
  Kalyani has been mainly used for devotional songs and duets by raja.
  amma endrazhaikaatha - not exactly a pathos, but it seems KJY cried while singing this song.
  
  nadhiyil aadum poovanam - fantastic melody from kaadhal oviyam.
  
  naan paada varuvaai - SJ has simply freaked out in this song from udhiripookal.
  
  I might have heard 'naan unnai azhaikaatha' but right now from the words Iam not able to recall the tune of the song.
  
  I have always been amazed by MSV using hindolam for a dance-type song like 'namma ooru singaari'.
  of course there is janani janani by IR.
  
  This raga always has a pleasant feel or sometimes evokes a devotional feeling in u. would be really great if someone has composed a pathos in this raga. iam not sure if MSV has one.
  
  One do gets the feeling that IR could have done more experiments like this by using raagas for completely different situations etc.
  
  another example is sudha saaveri. ususally used for happy situations(kaadhal mayakkam, kovil mani osai thannai, sithagathi pookale) it was also used by IR in Devar magan for the song 'manamagale'. this song is actually used for a marriage scene but still when one hears it it has a touch of pathos in it. especially the nadhaswaram(?) in the interlude gives u the feeling.
  
  
• From: Srinath (@ 63-217-90-105.sdsl.cais.net) on: Sat Apr 8 20:10:21 EDT 2000
  
  Vijay:
  That sounded more like a shehnai in Manamagale, but what a terrific piece ! As you said, it does instill a melancholic feeling in you !
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 129.252.22.221) on: Sat Apr 8 20:43:23 EDT 2000
  
  OK, srikanth, just found this in the foll link given by a fellow DFer;))
  http://home.att.net/~vasya10/Music/FilmSongNotes/main.html
  
  vellai pura ondru- kalyani . the same song has both happy and pathos versions. u can take the pathos as an example in kalyani. this is the one song where the lyrics lend a strong feeling of melancholy when u hear the pathos version because the tune of the pathos is similar to the happy version. the way KJY sings it also adds to the effect.
  
  
• From: Nandakumar (@ pc-sarkar-p.eng.mcmaster.ca) on: Sat Apr 8 21:51:55 EDT 2000
  
  people, i am not sure, is'nt 'vandaal mahalakshmiye' (SPB) in kalyani?, that's a completely different situation that those mentioned above.
  
  
• From: srikanth (@ wdslppp129.sttl.uswest.net) on: Sat Apr 8 22:49:06 EDT 2000
  
  vijay,Dharmavathi and maduvanti in hindustani music are same,
  
  like more msv dharamavathis,
  ammanai azaithevidum...from avan than manithan
  kadal kadal endru pesi...from utharavu indri ulle
  va...
  
  
  if you see in that list..there are many keeravanees
  
  also you have get hold of many old songs....and hear them, they are really good composition.
  
  
  
• From: srikanth (@ wdslppp129.sttl.uswest.net) on: Sat Apr 8 23:03:00 EDT 2000
  
  we should also discuss kalyanavasantam,
  very good raga....get some raja songs ,
  
  (I will get msv songs then :)))
  
  
• From: srikanth (@ wdslppp129.sttl.uswest.net) on: Sat Apr 8 23:14:13 EDT 2000
  
  raja's shamugapriya in Kadal kasakudhuayya..very different usage.
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 129.252.22.221) on: Sun Apr 9 01:17:03 EDT 2000
  
  Srikanth,
  I cant think of any IR's songs in kalyaanavasantham right off my head. if something strikes me I'll let u know. But I definitely know a couple of good nos. from MSV - nalla manam vaazhga and kaanji pattuduthi, both sung by KJY.
  
  But to get a general feel of the range of rare raagas and common raagas IR dealt with, a good start used to be ramaswamy's gireesan's site. Unfortunately the link is no longer working.
  
  srikanth, I think we can discuss these ragas in perhaps some other thread like the IR's creativity thread.
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 129.252.22.221) on: Sun Apr 9 01:17:25 EDT 2000
  
  Srikanth,
  I cant think of any IR's songs in kalyaanavasantham right off my head. if something strikes me I'll let u know. But I definitely know a couple of good nos. from MSV - nalla manam vaazhga and kaanji pattuduthi, both sung by KJY.
  
  But to get a general feel of the range of rare raagas and common raagas IR dealt with, a good start used to be ramaswamy's gireesan's site. Unfortunately the link is no longer working.
  
  srikanth, I think we can discuss these ragas in perhaps some other thread like the IR's creativity thread.
  
  I have revived the 'same raga used for different situations' thread.
  
  
• From: Venkatesh (@ ww2.ssbcd.co.om) on: Mon Apr 10 03:12:52 EDT 2000
  
  Suresh,
  
  Many thanks for your transliteration of Subbudu's interview. Please continue.
  
  
• From: Udhaya (@ 209.36.218.132) on: Mon Apr 10 18:07:25 EDT 2000
  
  Suppudu-rebuttal
  
  Suppudu knows carnatic music, he should stay within its confines. To expect grammar in pop/TFM music is like expecting meter in free verse poetry. Someone should tell this guy independence has arrived in Indian music too.
  
  He talks about IR's deiva bakthi and how religious devotion has somehow magically imbued itself in IR's music. Okay, I'll allow him this personal view if it makes him happy.
  
  But let's look at the historical accuracy of IR's deiva bakthi. IR and Gangai Amaran followed their elder brother, Paavalar Varadharajan (a staunch reformist/atheist with communist leanings)until their mid 20s. Paavalar used to tour the villages with reformist propaganda songs, plays. It was only around the time of "Thaai Mookaambigai" that IR found religion. He met with some Hindu guru who impacted him totally. After realizing his faith, IR released a private album as an ode to Mookambigai and in the album cover it stated that Mookambigai was his kuladheivam (kuladheivam is usually what one is born with, IR found his own). This is when he shaved his head and became utterly pious.
  
  If you look at all previous albums prior to this period you will see the picture of a grinning IR wearing a royal blue shirt, a winning smile, his hand over a guitar neck and a head full of flowing long hair. I remember this phase of IR because this is my favorite phase when his creativity was unbridled and exciting.
  
  So IR was not religious when he composed, released "Sendhoorappoovae". It bothers me when people search for external things like faith, class, religion, race, nationality to be the source of someone's talent.
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 129.252.26.123) on: Mon Apr 10 19:26:36 EDT 2000
  
  Subbudu has shown that he has a very conservative way of thinking when he makes staements like these saying that bhakti is what that transforms into melody in raajas songs. might be partially true in songs like 'amma endrazhaikaatha' 'janani'etc. but false in most cases.
  
  
• From: haris (@ inet-fw3-o.oracle.com) on: Mon Apr 10 20:26:32 EDT 2000
  
  grinning IR wearing a royal blue shirt, a winning smile, his hand over a guitar
  neck and a head full of flowing long hair.
  
  Udhaya, can you post/mail this photo of IR?? i've never seen any of IR's young age color snaps....
  
  
  
• From: kiru (@ surf0004.sybase.com) on: Mon Apr 10 20:55:08 EDT 2000
  
  Udhaya,
  I agree with you when you say 'things like faith, class, religion, race, nationality to be the source of someone's talent'. But I am afraid you are missing a point in the old man's analyses. You surely have heard music is 'self-expression' so naturally your mentality is going to show up in your music. IR is disciplined so his music sticks to a format. I dont see anything wrong in Subbudu's remark. IR is religious, spiritual so he sees that in IR's music. Fine, IR dressed like a punk before he found his religion but who knows those desires might have been dormant and found expression in his music, but not necessarily in his attire. Once he discovered religion, maybe it changed him totally.
  Critics like Subbudu are conservative people. Ofcourse they are not going to like experimentalists. But there is nothing wrong in him expecting people to play by the rules atleast in ethics (re: copying).
  
  
• From: Anand Mahadevan (@ alproxy2.proxy.lucent.com) on: Tue Apr 11 10:17:45 EDT 2000
  
  I do'nt agree with subbudu critizing ARR for the "MAST CALLENDER" from "sangamam". ARR has done a lot of these neat inspiration bits and infact
  everyone has done this including IR. For example "annatha aadurar" from "Aboorva shaodharargal" is an inspiration from a bengali folk song from Usha Uthup("Jai kaali!jai kaali calcuttawali").
  
  But I do agree with subbudo when he doubts ARR's knowledge of musical grammer. Infact, I doubted it from the day one and am still not convinced on his ability to compose. Agreed, he has given us some catchy tunes but they all lack fundamentals. No natural flow of thought. This could stem from the fact that he does'nt compose in one session and hence his expression is'nt natural as oppose to IR, who composes the core in one sitting. Probably musical overlays could be done at a latter day but the core is done at one go. This is evident in almost all IR's songs.
  I would like ARR to concetrate on compositions rather than sound engineering. I also doubt his ability to write musical notations. For example the violin interlude in "Kannamoochi" is Sriram's effort, I do'nt see ARR anywhere during that 30 second piece. Granted he is talented guy but his outward quest to reach fame is stiflying his ablity to compose from the heart.
  
  Anand Mahadevan
  
  
  
• From: rajaG (@ daecfp02.sprint.com) on: Tue Apr 11 11:32:25 EDT 2000
  
  I feel ARR should do what he does in his "own methods and manners" and IR likewise. As fans we have every right to interpret their actions (I guess we have our own subjective biases which lead us to thes interpretations). But to prescribe a method for their creativity to flow will curb their natural instincts. ARR (among his other talents) also "puts together" the talents of other musicians like Sriram, Kadri, Prasanna, Naveen etc. What's so wrong in allowing some of the musicians to have freedom of form and expression. We all talk about MSV being a good singer's MD because he gave 'freedom' to SPB for trying out vocal antics. Why should we crticize ARR for giving the same freedom to musicians. We may argue that 'putting together' is not composing - Granted. But that is to be questioned only if the person concerned has never 'composed'. We all know that ARR has demonstrated enough talent in composing. So let us not question his varying methods of music production.
  
  

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