Home   Forum   Wiki   Notes   Register   FAQ   Sitemap   About Us   Contact Us  

Ir's limitations

Topic started by krishnan (@ uswgne11.uswest.com) on Wed Jul 8 15:52:59 EDT 1998.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

I know I am going to get a few bouncers.Let me start off any way & put
on a helmet.If one were to play with numbers, considering all of IR's
4000 plus songs ( atleast the popular ones) one could classify most of
them under 15 main ragas.( eg. mohanam, kalyani etc).I know of countless
songs he has done in mohanam & MMgowla.Well, one has to give dure credit
to him to have composed in nalinakanthi & kambiranattai.And how many
folk in sindhubhairavi.I understand that even a pure classical singer
limits himself to these standard ragas.That does not mean IR has to
tread on the same path ( applying these ragas).Well, has IR done in
umabharanam or dwijavanthi or any of the rare rags that dikshitar has
done.No comparisons here please.This is the challenge that lies ahead of
the future musicians.IR may have started on a western background, &
started to pick up on carnatic later ( with the help of TVG).I would
like to see him do more on some rare ragas.No more
mohanam,kalyani,S.bhairavi please.

---

Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: suresh (@ dedicated-149.chn.vsnl.net.in) on: Fri Apr 7 01:33:05 EDT 2000
  
  Kiru
  
  Absolutely. I've always wondered why there's so much talk about ragas, as though IR and ARR consciously start composing with a raga in mind and build on it. I doubt if even ARR does that for every song that has been quoted in this forum as raga-based. I may be wrong here too..
  
  Subbudu, in his interview in the recent Kumudam, strays very close to this issue of IR's limitations. He says that because of his 'gnanam' in Indian and Western music, he operates within its parameters and goes on to equate it to an example - he says that it's like expecting Shankaracharya to go to Drive-In and have breakfast. He also says that the 'nadhaparinaaman' in just the starting line of "Senthoorappoove.." had him mesmerised for months.
  
  
• From: suresh (@ dedicated-149.chn.vsnl.net.in) on: Fri Apr 7 01:34:43 EDT 2000
  
  oops, typo:
  read "nadhaparinaaman" as "Nadhaparinaamam"
  
  
• From: suresh (@ dedicated-149.chn.vsnl.net.in) on: Fri Apr 7 04:55:22 EDT 2000
  
  "nadhaparimaanam" - now isn't that the right word?
  
  yours sheepishly
  :)
  
  
• From: Ramesh (@ spider-wd062.proxy.aol.com) on: Fri Apr 7 10:50:10 EDT 2000
  
  "nadhaparimaanam" - what does this mean?. Kindly explain
  
  
• From: Subbu (@ 192.39.227.151) on: Fri Apr 7 11:19:27 EDT 2000
  
  Krishnan,
  
  IMO you have tried to belittle IR by comparing him with Dikshidar who is a pure carnatic composer. If you feel IR has not composed in all the 250 ragas that Dikshidar has used, in the same way I have not heard of any western / folk / BGM composed by Dikshidar.
  
  May I use this analogy ?
  It's like comparing an Encyclopedia on Music with a depth of a book just dedicated to Carnatic music. In this case, the author of the Ency.. (IR)is also capable of writing an equally good carnatic one like the other guy. It is just that the time is different and popular music is more dependant on cinema.
  
  But you should appreciate that IR , within the given restrictions has contributed immensely to CM also. If some one (or the government / or any private organisation) takes some effort in proposing an economically viable project like composing 500 new Carnatic keerthanas in different ragas, definitely IR is the only man available now to take up this job. I hope something like this happens and I am sure IR would complete this in 1 or 2 years.
  
  This would also do a lot of good Tamil - Carnatic music fraternity & rasigargal.
  
  I have just seen this site today. It made me feel very sad. How many people will still belittle IR just because they are specalists in their own field ?
  
  With due respect to all composers,
  Subbu
  
  
  
  
  
• From: Subbu (@ 192.39.227.151) on: Fri Apr 7 11:21:44 EDT 2000
  
  sorry typo -
  This would also do a lot of good FOR Tamil - Carnatic music fraternity & rasigargal.
  
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 129.252.26.123) on: Fri Apr 7 11:38:45 EDT 2000
  
  Suresh or anyone,
  can u atleast pl. post the gist of subbudu's interview ?
  
  
• From: haris (@ inet-fw1-o.oracle.com) on: Fri Apr 7 13:54:06 EDT 2000
  
  composing some songs in each of all the ragas is NOT a big deal ( for IR ). after all each raga has its own unique personality.
  And if he (IR) wanted to do so, he would have easily done it. One song in each raga ( if we take 250 ragas... ) - 7 songs per film - he could have - with no extra effort- finished 250/7 = 35 films. But i only feel that he took it as a challenge to restrict himself to a bunch ( a very big bunch ) of ragas and to give different emotions , shades of them.
  
  
• From: srikanth (@ host2.cvs.aa.net) on: Fri Apr 7 14:07:21 EDT 2000
  
  Basically composing in a raga is a cakewalk for our composers, but changing the mood...for raga...
  
  like use mohan or kalyani to give a pathos score
  (msv has done work like this, take abogi or dharmavathi, he uses it it for real light score...)
  
  If raja uses a raga, he often tends to change it this way or that way, this is because he needs to fit the song for this wc progressions.
  Using a classical raga for a classical score is not a big deal, but using the raga for a somewhat new type of arrangement...eg:sivaranji for kannum kannum kolai adithal...
  
  I would not harshly discount raja here, he gave a sweet melody in boobalam like score in paruvame puthiya padal pAdu...but he limites them to few songs,
  Can some one comeup with a pop like score set to some classical raga, i know
  there are few hamsadwani's and mohanam's or bhilahari from raja but they use the same mood of the raga ...
  I like to ponder is there is pop/rock score from raja using kambogi or karaharapriya or kalyani.
  
  
• From: raja (@ 63.86.193.2) on: Fri Apr 7 14:11:54 EDT 2000
  
  Srikanth:
  
  Wasnt Poo Malarndhida from Tik Tik Tik based on Karahapriya?
  
  
• From: MS (@ 129.252.26.235) on: Fri Apr 7 14:14:32 EDT 2000
  
  Srikanth:
  
  iravu nilavu is in karaharapriya - I guess.
  
  
• From: srikanth (@ host2.cvs.aa.net) on: Fri Apr 7 14:51:00 EDT 2000
  
  ms, Tik Tik tik song i remember it was reethe gowlai.
  
  simply if you use the notes of karaharapriya it not karaharapriya.
  
  
  
  
  
• From: MS (@ 129.252.26.235) on: Fri Apr 7 14:52:25 EDT 2000
  
  Other examples are:
  
  (1) raththiriyil pooththirukkum = hamsaanandhi
  (2) kaNdupidichchEn kaNdupidichchEn = shubapanthuvaraaLi (maha sOga raagam :-))
  
  I will not be discussing any further because of 2 reasons :
  (1) my limited knowledge
  (2) it is more like discussing IR's positive points than llimitations.
  
  
• From: srikanth (@ host2.cvs.aa.net) on: Fri Apr 7 15:07:06 EDT 2000
  
  ms, reminder:
  I like to ponder is there is pop/rock score from
  raja using kambogi or karaharapriya or kalyani
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 129.252.22.221) on: Fri Apr 7 17:37:22 EDT 2000
  
  karaharapriya:
  
  poo malarndhida - karaharapriya from Tik Tik Tik. srikanth, u sure it is reethi gowlai?
  
  maapillaikku maaman manasu - netrikann. well not exactly a pop/dance song but not composed for a classical-song type situation either.
  
  kamboji- i dont know of any song, leave alone pop song, that IR has composed in kamboji. not used much I believe atleast in the last few years.
  
  endrendun aananthame - kadal meengal. srikanth, u can listen to this song in suresh's site. a great pop song based on what I think is sarasaangi/maya malava gowlai.
  
  raja has given poongathave thazhthidavaai as well as madurai marikkozhundu(dappanguthu style) in these ragas.
  
  I feel that speaking of IRs limitations he could have easily used more ragas. he is definitely capable but somehow restricted himself to composing in a few ragas like mohanam, sudha dhanyaasi, hindilam etc.
  
  I would have loved to hear more songs in yadukulakambhoji, sriraagam, varaali, bhairavi, darbaar etc. People here sometimes accuse of IR becoming stale after 1995. as someone said even if IR had composed one song in each one of these ragas he would have easily got 100-150 songs sounding 'fresh' and without having to break his head.
  
  for example see how fresh 'oranjaaram' from kaaki siraginile sounds just because it was composed in a less-used raga like desh by IR(of course, the singer was SPB!!).
  
  
• From: srikanth (@ host2.cvs.aa.net) on: Fri Apr 7 18:10:24 EDT 2000
  
  maapillaikku maaman manasu --- very good example, he tried to change the mood of the raaga.
  
  
• From: haris (@ inet-fw1-o.oracle.com) on: Fri Apr 7 19:04:01 EDT 2000
  
  chinna rajave chitterumbu enna kadikkudhu - lathangi
  
  
• From: eden (@ 202.54.71.157) on: Sat Apr 8 01:51:54 EDT 2000
  
  guys, I read somewhere `konji, konji alaidal Ada' uses some rare rAgA...what's that?
  
  
• From: suresh (@ dedicated-149.chn.vsnl.net.in) on: Sat Apr 8 07:27:31 EDT 2000
  
  vijay,..excerpts of Subbudu's interview..
  
  preface:
  
  sameepathil, oru TV nigazhchiyil ARR-in isaiyai vimarsithu sila karuthukkalai cholliyirundhar isai vimarsigar Subbudu. Rahman-ai than vazhakkamana hacksaw blade koormaiyudan vimarsithavar, Ilaiyaraajavukku than special shottukkalaiyum therivithirundhar.....
  
  (I've skipped the opening 2 paras here)...
  
  Koorndhu noakkinal Ilaiyaraajavai patri oru unmai pulappadum. Avar maerkathiya isaiyilum karnaataka isaiyilum nalla thaertchi ullavar. Avaigalai muraiyaka kattrukondavar. Isaithurayil avar parama vaidhigar. Avaigalin nelivu sulivugalai nandraaga arindhavar. Oru muzhu symphony-ai sila mani nerangalil ezhuthil vadikkakoodiya abaara thiramai petravar. Hungary-il athu nitharsanamaayitru. Aagave avarudaiya manappaanmai-manappokku avaraiyum ariyaamal oru kattupaattukku utpattuvittadhu. or uvamaiyaaga chonnal avar oru "veli thaanda velladu". Yosithu paarungal - AthiShankarar Woodlands hotel-il aircondition araiyil nei rava dosai saappiduvaara? .... Aadhishankarar avarudaiya aachara kattuppadukalinaal angu saapiduvadhu avar amarndhirukkum manaikku, athaavadhu peedathirku uvandhadhaagathu. Maelum, IR niramba irai nambikkai ullavar. Avarudaiya sila isaipprayogangalil oru eerkkum kaandha sakthi irukkum. Uthaaranam - "Senthoorappoove". Andha oru variyil olikkum naadhaparimaanam ennai madha kanakkil aatti vaithadhu.
  
  Aduthapadi Rahman-ukku varuvom. Naan koorappovadhu enadhu sondha anumaanam. Aadhishankararukku poonul venduma? Ilakkana kattuppaadukalukky utpattu amaippadhu oru vagai. Athai meeri naadha ulagil sanjarikka muyalvathu veru vagai. Rahman-udaiya isaiyil ithai amoagamaga kaangiren. Isai ilakkanam therindhirundhal, indha maathiri dhairiyamaai athanindrum vidupattu naadhakkalavaigalil avar eedupattiruppara enbadhu sandhegam. Ilakkanam endru eduthu kondal athu manidhan vaguthadhu thaane? Anandha Bhairavi-kku andhara kaandharam kidaiyaathu. Athu varaamal aalapanai seithal edupadaathu. Avar thaalathai maiyamaaga veithu isaikkoppu seigirar enbadhu ennudaiya aayvu. Ulagame thaalathirkku kattuppattadhu. Thaalathirkku jaathi, madhapedha, pradesa vithyaasangal kidaiyaathu. Engu poanaalum irandum, irandum naalu thaan. Rhythm has universal appeal.
  Namadhu drummer Sivamani-yai eduthu kollungal. Ozhungaaga Mirudangam katrukkonda laya vidvan. Then Indiyavileye than pizhaippai nadathi kondirundhaal, avarum kundu chattiyil kudhirai ooati kondiruppar. Athai thavirthu pala vidhamana thaala vaadhyangalai eduthukondu, komali thoppi anindhu kondu, kaathile poovirkku bathilaaga cycle chakkaram size-ukku valaiyam poattukondu ulaga pirasithi petru vilangukiraar. Rahmanidam ithe manappaanmai iruppadhinaal avar naadha ulagathile sanjarithu, rasigargalai mudukki ezhuppakkoodiya laguvaana thaala pravaagangalai vaithu jamaaikkirar. Avarukku karpanaithiran endha alavirkku irukkiradhendru enakku theriyaadhu. ...
  
  (to be contd...whew!)
  
  
• From: Vijay Venkatraman J (@ 203.197.154.36) on: Sat Apr 8 11:30:51 EDT 2000
  
  INTERNATIONAL COMEDY:
  --------------------
  ARR says in this week's Kungumam (9/4/2000):
  "Naan yaarudaya paadalgalayum copy adikkavillai! Hindi MD'd thaan ennai patri kurai sollikkonde EN ISAIYAIK COPY ADIKKIRAARGAL"
  Means : I nver copied from anyone but all the Hindi MD's who criticize me saying that I am recycling are copying my music!
  Further he swears that : "Naan yaarai paarthum copy adikkalai" angrily!
  
  NB : Subbudu's remark on ARR's Direct Lift of some song in Sangamam - Rahman seidhadhu nyayama endru avaraye ketkiren and he refers some Bengali song and asks ARR for nyayam!!! Little knowing the level of the Copycat!
  God should save Tamil rasigargal from these people!
  Vedhanayudan,
  Vijay.
  
  

---

List all pages of this thread

Post comments