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Topic started by krishnan (@ uswgne11.uswest.com) on Wed Jul 8 15:52:59 EDT 1998.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.
I know I am going to get a few bouncers.Let me start off any way & put
on a helmet.If one were to play with numbers, considering all of IR's
4000 plus songs ( atleast the popular ones) one could classify most of
them under 15 main ragas.( eg. mohanam, kalyani etc).I know of countless
songs he has done in mohanam & MMgowla.Well, one has to give dure credit
to him to have composed in nalinakanthi & kambiranattai.And how many
folk in sindhubhairavi.I understand that even a pure classical singer
limits himself to these standard ragas.That does not mean IR has to
tread on the same path ( applying these ragas).Well, has IR done in
umabharanam or dwijavanthi or any of the rare rags that dikshitar has
done.No comparisons here please.This is the challenge that lies ahead of
the future musicians.IR may have started on a western background, &
started to pick up on carnatic later ( with the help of TVG).I would
like to see him do more on some rare ragas.No more
mohanam,kalyani,S.bhairavi please.
Responses:
- Old responses
- From: Punniyakodi Marakaanam (@ 128.96.140.26)
on: Thu Jul 16 13:58:05 EDT 1998
I don't think that "Aagaya Vennilavae" is set to roopakam. Raja has used a five beat cycle in "Meetatha Oru Veenai" from "Poonthotam" and "En Kalyaana Vaibhogam" from "Azhagae unnai aarathikiraen"
- From: S.Suresh (@ dwarpal.wipsys.soft.net)
on: Fri Jul 17 02:14:53 EDT 1998
Geetha,
Two things. First, I dont think "Rojavai Thalattum Thendral" is Panthuvarali. "Ezhu Swarangal" by MSV still remains the best PanthuVarali in TFM. Second, as Mouli had pointed out the Ramgeela song is based on Purya Dhanashri which is similar to PanthuVarali. So it may not have been too new to the HFM audience.
Yes. There are very few Begadas and Kambojis. Begada I guess is a very very difficult ragam to dilute. Kamboji similarly is a difficult ragam to dilute but Telugu music directors have handled it pretty well. There is also a good Tamil song (it is present in Telugu) which goes as "Kallile Kalaivannam Kandar" by Seergazhi. I guess the music is by KVM. The Sahana that KVM gave is one of the best. "Paarthen, Sirithen". The Sahana of Deva, "Ruk Ruk" is not something I like. It doesnt really have a good melody. KVM also gave "Yaar Tharuvar Inda Ariyasanam" in Atana (Kalidas). In case of Dvijawanthi, other than "Akilandeswari" there is another kriti of Dikshitar "ChetaSri Balakrishnam". I personally like this more.
I am happy that some discussions on talams are on. I dont have much knowledge on this aspect but will give my impressions on some of the songs. I am sure that one song from the movie Metti sung by some male singer "Sandhathil" or some such words has a different beat. I have heard this only once unfortunately. My guess was that this was in Kanda Chaapu. Similarly another song from Auto Shankar seems to be in Kanda Chaapu (5 beats). I havent heard this Auto Shankar song in Tamil but my friend says that the S.Janaki song in Oolangal (Malayalam) is the same. Similarly "Ninnarul" from Aatma is also not Adi thalam. Infact of all MDs I have heard, Raja is the one who has experimented most with talams. Others have more Adi Talams. They may change the gait (called nadai) but essentially the talam remains Adi. Any clarif/info will be very welcome.
- From: Rajaraman (@ 210.24.206.2)
on: Fri Jul 17 04:28:32 EDT 1998
Suresh
two nice songs in Kambhoji
1. aadiya paathangal ambalathil - uzhaikkum karangal
2. kalviyaa selvamaa veeramaa - saraswathi sapatham
- From: vijay (@ 129.252.27.248)
on: Fri Jul 17 05:02:15 EDT 1998
'bala kanakamaya seya' by SJ comes in the movie salangai oli when bhargavi dances to the song in a marriage function and kamal who is helping his mother in the kitchen listens to the song and also dances.i think the song is based on atana.
- From: Bharat (@ isdbsd1-inet.ci.mil.wi.us)
on: Fri Jul 17 16:12:33 EDT 1998
S.Suresh:
That song from Metti is "Sandhakkavigal Paadidum...", and it sounded like a straightforward aadhi taalam to me. That song has very interesting use of the tabla, and that may be what you are refering to.
"Ninnarul" from Aatma sounded like it was based on roopakam.
- From: S.Suresh (@ dwarpal.wipsys.soft.net)
on: Mon Jul 20 00:32:17 EDT 1998
Bharat,
Maybe you are right about "Sandhakkavigal". The use of tabla was different. I will listen to "Ninnarul" one of these days and check. Thanks for the info
Two songs which seem to be other than Adi are "Azhagu Malar Aada" and "Doorathil Nan Kanda" from Nizhalgal. Or is it the case of a different nadai for Adi thalam. Someone clarify.
Vijay,
Salangai Oli did have "BalaKanakamaya" but it is a Tyagaraja Krithi.
- From: Geetha (@ gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk)
on: Mon Jul 20 10:43:45 EDT 1998
S.Suresh: What Ragam do you make Rojave Thaalaatum then? I can feel the whole scale in the song. Please tell me....
I was speaking of IR's music for songs in Sahana and Kamboji, not in all of TFM. I know of songs by other composers, other then IR, remember this is an 'IR's limitations' thread. As I said, I've heard Malayalam songs in Kamboji, I think IR may have done some of them, he just hasn't done one in Tamil that I know of....Ragams like Bhairavhi, Huseni, Niroshta, Vijeya Saraswathi, Vijeya Naagari(MKTB has a song in the ragam.....) have not been touched by IR....Maybe he will do some of these in the future....that is my hope....
Also, Hai Rama is pure Panthuvarali, not Pooriya Dhanashri, which is not quite the same. The sound may be similar, but not the same....hence, it is an experimentation for the Hindustani listener. My point was that this thread was about IR's limitations, not ARR's innovations....As I said, the song went down very well with the HFM audience, and there are a whole lot in the UK, it was definitely new and excellent for them....Their comments....
- From: krishnan (@ uswgne11.uswest.com)
on: Mon Jul 20 13:59:38 EDT 1998
We have been having the pallavi,anu pallavi,charanam format for ages & is a brilliant system.Other than SD burman in hindi I have not seen many breaking this.If u hear to 'Aaj phir' song in guide the songs begin in the middle of the charanam.You can also hear Tv sankaranarayanan performing such innvoations these days.( eg. sakala graha song in atana, he bagan with the anu pallavi).This sounded refreshingly new.It has become quite monotonous with the same pattern.
'Kanmani' in guna is truly a innovation.( with just 1 interlude).I would like to see Raja innovate on these lines.
- From: Udhaya (@ 205.218.142.217)
on: Mon Jul 20 15:21:03 EDT 1998
krishnan, does the song "Maaliyilae 6 mani, saliyilae moodupani" follow a set pallavi, anu pallavi, charanam format? It sounded unique to my ears. Was it a well disguised format or an innovation?
- From: krishnan (@ uswgne11.uswest.com)
on: Mon Jul 27 18:28:13 EDT 1998
Udhaya :
I have not heard that song
- From: Udhaya (@ )
on: Fri Mar 31 16:44:51 EST 2000
Revived with the hope of getting an answer for my question to krishnan. Also, I wish for Srikanth, Sriram Lakshman, RajaG and other musicians' input here.
- From: haris (@ inet-fw8-o.oracle.com)
on: Tue Apr 4 21:35:33 EDT 2000
has ilayaraja given many good songs WITHOUT basing on a carnatic raga??
just a tune.. just from imagination.
One of my friends was telling about this. he said msv-tkr did this a lot. like 'malarndhum malaraadha'... - is it based on any particular raga??
- From: vijay (@ 129.252.22.221)
on: Wed Apr 5 00:12:33 EDT 2000
Haris, I think this has been discussed before, but still let me try to give u a few examples. I have made a start. if any of these are indeed raga based let me know:
1. uravugal thodarkathai - aval appadithan
2. azhagu aayiram - ullasap paravaigal
3. yeh thendrale - nenjathai killathe
4. paruvame - "
5. vegam vegam - anjali
6. iravu nilavu - anjali
7. raja rajadhi - agni natchathiram
8. mella mella enai thottu - vaazhkai
9. sandosham - manithanin marupakkam
10. oh vasantha raja- neengal kettavai - not based purely on any raga
11. pottu vaitha - singaaravelan
12. ival oru ilanguruvi - brahma
13. diana diana - kaathal kavithai
and so on.. some of the above songs might have some traces of a particular raga, but NO IR has never needed a raga or a carnatic basis to give a melody in contrast to the modern day MDs.
- From: MS (@ 129.252.26.235)
on: Wed Apr 5 01:37:24 EDT 2000
If C major scale can be called Sankarabaranam,
(1) Sankaraabaranam
(2) Sankarabaranam
(5) Natabairavi
(6) Karaharapriya
(8) Natabairavi
Please correct if I am wrong. IMO, 2 absolute blinders of IR are "viziyil vizi mOdhi" from KM and "poonkaatrilE" from "paattu paada vaa".
- From: Vicky (@ 208.220.246.213)
on: Wed Apr 5 07:05:25 EDT 2000
Mr.Harris, I'm very surprised on ur question as I think Raaja is the ultimate when it comes to the spontaneous outflow of music so far.No body can even think what raaga "Ataadi Ammaadi then mottuthan" from "idayathai thirudatha".Almost all the 12 notes of music comes in that.The style he has adopted is amazing that all thro' the song every line revolves around one particular swaram and its adjacent notes.Same is the case with "Thodatha Thaalam" from Anand.These are purely westernised compositions of him.What about "Raaja kaiya vecha" from Aboorva Saho. the pallavi
"Raaja kaiya vecha athu wronga ..." starts with a major touch but once the same pallavi comes after
1st charanam The chords,the base Guitar backing and even the tune of it changes to Minor touch. This is simply impossible by Any other person.So in my opinion Raaja remains a model for these idea of composing a song out of no where,not leaning towards any raga.
Love
Vicky
- From: srikanth (@ wdslppp129.sttl.uswest.net)
on: Wed Apr 5 10:39:27 EDT 2000
guys,
There are old songs where you cannot find the raga,eg; ragangal 16 from thilumullu, this is complete classical score but does not have a ragam, many mgr songs are like this,
infact the song , paruvame puthiya padal has a lot of boobalam in it.
the list needs to analyzed more.
- From: kiru (@ surf0004.sybase.com)
on: Thu Apr 6 14:20:59 EDT 2000
Do you think IR consciously uses rAgams in songs ? I doubt that. He is making up so many number of melodies that it could be pure concidence that there are shades of a rAgam in it. I think the rAgam system is only a rationalisation of what has been observed in nature. We dont like a rAgam because it is a rAgam, we like it because it sounds good. When we say e = mc2 it only explains nature mathematically same thing applies to music (I think). Comments welcome on this theory.
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