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MSV and ARR - THE ONLY LEGENDARY COMPOSERS FOR TFM TO CHERISH!

Topic started by Kumar (@ 202.9.169.42) on Fri May 4 11:04:06 EDT 2001.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

The melodies of MSV are longlived and cherished even today as new. They sound fresh.
ARR, though young in age can be considered as a current day counterpart in composing songs intact with melody, well orchestrated to the mood, giving importance to the lyrical content, the same way MSV did then! I think there is a similarity between the two geniuses.

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: cosmician (@ 194.170.1.130) on: Thu May 10 18:37:27 EDT 2001
  
  ...unless u all kick me out like Trend !!
  
  I'd rather be a Trendsetter than a Trendfollower !
  
  
• From: Swamiji (@ 198.102.112.201) on: Thu May 10 18:38:34 EDT 2001
  
  "but as long as you learned musicians can't vibrate my heart strings or for that matter strike a chord with the masses...consider yourselves a failure...and you can't do away with the "music unlettered" like us.."
  ....I simply can't assure you I can do that, and nor do I consider myself a failure. Above all I am a human too :) Pl. take that lightly.
  
  
• From: UVII (@ 63.224.65.186) on: Thu May 10 18:39:51 EDT 2001
  
  :-)
  
  
• From: !!! (@ 165.122.129.102) on: Thu May 10 18:53:38 EDT 2001
  
  Nobody kicks out anybody from here. Everybody come here and leave on their own.
  
  
• From: UVII (@ 63.224.65.186) on: Thu May 10 18:54:50 EDT 2001
  
  in short everyone kicks themself out of here....
  
  
• From: kiru (@ 192.138.149.4) on: Thu May 10 20:58:56 EDT 2001
  
  cosmician..I am not a musician at all (like Swamiji for eg) nor do I have all that knowledge in music. I talk pretty much at a very high level. The specifics are elucidated by Swamiji (great job on WCM terms, thanks) and by aruLaracan (quick lesson on ICM, great ) or comment (for being the bouncing board). (I am like a sponge when technical people like these talk, trying to absorb as much as possible). It is not my intention to hurt or insult Trend. I just dont think when a music savvy person like Swamiji expresses his opinion one has to immediately cry foul and say you are biased. The right thing to do would be to ask that person - can you tell me more about the music of the person for whom you have great respect. We are here not just to chit-chat but to improve our knowledge about music. After being in these forums, my appreciation for music has increased tremendously. Ofcourse, I have supplemented these with reading and listening. We should be all happy and thankful for the lessons amateur composers and savvy people here are giving us. It is only a mature thing to respect these people and not equate them with the rest of 'troll'.
  
  As usual I like to make friends (thanks nanban) not foes !!
  
  
  
• From: comment (@ 12.5.10.153) on: Fri May 11 09:25:34 EDT 2001
  
  The story continues today also, if swamiji is interested. :)
  
  swamiji...you are yet to answer my questions...:)
  
  
  Yesterday this was my statment,
  
  I feel an Indian melody becomes
  mechanical if you start arranging them following strict WCM rules.
  
  swamiji, after a ton of arguments and exchanges you have also mentioned the same....
  
  If you follow more stricter melody based on harmony, you will have a more "western" sounding voice (i.e. Church form of music, where the sole aim is to please god.). Basically We are working on Indian music. Imho, Things are different,
  
  Now, for the benefit of many can you clarify this..
  
  cadence -- ending of a phrase....
  As per harmony theory, the cadence became completely dependent on the chord changes
  how do we map this to carnatic music. ?
  
  Imho, Your mapping with carnatic music is just
  virtual, like in book cricket when we get 0 we call it out...just for the sake it called as out, but we dont know how he was out etc :) hope you understand.
  
  
  and finally Trend, if you read this...
  at first instance for some reason, I also thought Kiru was against me :), his languge imho, is somewhat like that, as days passed, he proved me i am wrong. He is simply straright forward with a softcorner for IR :) thats all. Take it easy...
  Trend has to change one day:)
  
  
• From: kiru (@ 192.138.149.4) on: Fri May 11 11:10:25 EDT 2001
  
  "He is simply straright forward with a softcorner for IR :)" - ha ha ..you can put it that way :)(but I really would not want to get into specifics :)) BTW, you are doing a good job in this patti manRam with Swamiji. I am all ears. I can appreciate when you say things get 'mechanical' and when Swami says 'Western' sounding.
  
  
• From: Krk (@ 64.104.128.15) on: Fri May 11 11:34:17 EDT 2001
  
  comment,
  
  >>He is simply straright forward with a softcorner for IR :)
  
  Yes, as you have softcorner for ARR.
  
  
  
• From: comment (@ 12.5.10.153) on: Fri May 11 11:36:59 EDT 2001
  
  krk...actually I have a soft corner for MSV
  then followed by arr :)
  
  
  
• From: aruLaracan (@ 134.124.160.10) on: Fri May 11 12:06:43 EDT 2001
  
  kiru: please do not degrade swamiji and srikanth by using my name in the same sentence. i am a kaththukkutti in music.
  
  
• From: comment (@ 12.5.10.153) on: Fri May 11 12:48:49 EDT 2001
  
  guys, arularasan is too humble, he as written lyrics for my next song I gave him really tough tune (time) :) he has done a good job on the lyrics, one of the DF'r here has agreed to sing for me, will be recorded pretty soon. :)
  
  
  
  
  
• From: Swamiji (@ 198.102.112.201) on: Fri May 11 13:44:20 EDT 2001
  
  Comment vaal:
  Ok first with example. Take any song. Now forget about chord progression - and talk only melody.
  Take any song...lets take "Unnidam mayangugiren" and separate phrases. Take a "complete" phrase. Usually the phrase starts with a tonic and ends with a tonic, 3rd or 5th. This is very common...
  Lets notate in S, R, G (Major scale. If u see a # or b you know what it means)
  
  S--G--P--p# D--D---D--D---
  Un-ni-dam Ma-yan-gu-giren,
  
  D---D--D P--P--P--PP---
  Ull-athal Ne-rungu-giren (,)
  
  P---P---D--N--S-------N---S--N-D--
  Yen-dhen-uyir kaa-----dha-li-yile ,
  
  D--D--N-M# P----M#-P----G-R-S
  In-ni-sai De---va-dhai-ye .
  
  See that at the end of each line there is a punctuation mark. Just a simple "," means there is a pause, but it is temporary and there is more to come. What this means that you cannot simply end the phrase here. If you end it there, u will make the listener uncomforatable. Technically what this means is that, end of a phrase other than a tonic, 5th or 3rd will render that phrase incomplete. See that in line 1, the phrase ends in a D or sixth, while in 2nd line, it ends with a perfect 5th.
  The reason why I indicated second line with a (,) is that it can be thought of as complete. And it also indicates end of one phrase -- or a "half" cadence. If you strip off other lines, this line would still make sense. Meaning you can compose (yourself) any other phrase and connect it to this. It will still be valid. There are many techniques used - like inversion: Meaning if you go like 1,3,2,4 - then u end with 4,2,3,1 (imagine a mirror placed between notes). This way u will establish similarity or a "question- answer" duet. This is there not only in western music, but also in carnatic. Likewise there are many composing techniques. What I am saying here is that the above written rule stands not only for western music, but also many carnatic songs I heard so far.
  ---More to come later..
  
  
• From: comment (@ 12.5.10.153) on: Fri May 11 14:46:07 EDT 2001
  
  swamiji, kalai velai pooja acha :)
  ?? why did you post the above ? it is very very basic when do you do a compostion to come back to the root note.
  
  You say if this is not followed it makes the listener uncomfortable, how do you prove this ?
  So can i say sceret of a songs success is to make the listener comfortable (agreed) - to achive this you make sure to end the song a perfect 5th.. ?..... an ordinary listener does not know a perfect 5th or 6th or nth end...theory suggests or prescibes you a basic std,
  but if you start thinking about a composition 100% to this std, we will end up composing
  ba ba black sheep
  have you any wool;
  yes yes sir 3 bags full;
  --
  can you notate ragangal16 (thilumullu) song in this form.
  
  
• From: Swamiji (@ 198.102.112.201) on: Fri May 11 15:26:05 EDT 2001
  
  I have work man...maybe later. But it is possible. I didnt mean perfect Fifth all the time. I meant its "harmonic" equivalent. Neither did i mean u come back to the root note all the time..
  Anywyas I just spoke to my colleague that does audio mixing and wrote his own mixer and did some assembly coding to do real time mixes. Damn impressive. I have a lot to learn!!!!! BTW, he showed me a composition he made....Tell u the truth it is EQUIVALENT IN FEEL TO A RAHMAN composition. Only that it was not indian music....Technology is great....
  
  
• From: comment (@ 12.5.10.153) on: Fri May 11 15:42:35 EDT 2001
  
  swamiji, try to pass this info to Andrew webber :)
  
  
• From: observer (@ 144.92.164.198) on: Fri May 11 16:01:52 EDT 2001
  
  Almost all world music composers - Peter Gabriel, Deep Forest, Enigma, compose with the Rehman feel - basically Rehman feel is not native. His melodies are. That's why its arguable that many of his songs (songs like ones from Sangamam being the exception) are carnatic fused with world music, not the other way around.
  
  
• From: comment (@ 12.5.10.153) on: Fri May 11 16:12:41 EDT 2001
  
  observer -- good point sir! (since your critics critic, ore bayam than :)
  
  just one change instead of carnatic, he does more hindustani based fusion.
  
  
  
• From: cosmician (@ 194.170.1.68) on: Fri May 11 16:28:15 EDT 2001
  
  Peace...guys..hope Trend too smokes the Pipe of Peace...Kiru..I like ur attitude of learning...but hope u consider other music appreciators from telling what they feel from their "heart"...like Trend..he may not have the tech savviness of Swamiji but you need our view-points also...hope u accept.. :)
  
  
• From: Swamiji (@ 198.102.112.201) on: Fri May 11 17:38:25 EDT 2001
  
  Non-Musical talk:
  True - This tech saviness the result of "appreciation from the heart". Curiosity, and dissatisfaction from accepting something for granted is the reason why we thirst for knowledge. Not only in music, but also anything in the world.
  On a slightly different note, this i read like a few years back - quite relevant to what we are talking here...
  There are 3 kinds of people
  1. Those who make things happen
  2. Those who let things happen
  3. Those who wonder what happened!!
  
  In my opinion those that are satisfied "Ok it pleases my heart" falls under person type 2. There are a few people that really think why something happens the way it is. Thats where I would think a fact called "Application of Techniques" come in. I hope you see this point...
  
  
• From: xyz (@ 152.163.204.66) on: Fri May 11 18:07:36 EDT 2001
  
  ARR new songs page has made it to the archives-i dont know how long before he is archived!
  
  

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