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Compare and Contrast IR's musical style(s), especially with the BGM tracks, with those of composers of Hollywood

Topic started by Music_lover (@ 202.141.98.226) on Wed Apr 28 08:58:08 EDT 2004.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Compare and Contrast IR's musical style(s), especially with the BGM tracks, with those of composers of Hollywood, viz., Maurice Jarre, Henri Mancini, John Williams, Jerry Goldsmith, Bernstein, John Barry, Alan Sylvistri, Danny Elfman, Ennio Morricone, Howard Shore, Hans Zimmer, James Horner and so on

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: Osho (@ 203.197.136.34) on: Mon May 10 03:52:56 EDT 2004
  
  This is great stuff guys Keep the thread alive and kicking...
  
  Gyan please do upload the mp3 and i would be more than glad to listen to any resemblance with any of IR's composition.
  
  I was listening to some of the bgm tracks I have in my possession and I came across two gems. I would present both tracks to the table. One from a film 60 to 60 varai (1979) and the other My Dear Kuttichathan(). The former is the title track the later i am not sure of.
  
  1) My Dear kuttichathan
  Entire gamut of emotions neatly defined in a 4:59 track. Absolutely phenomenal. The ingenuity of IR, is that he can do such sort of composition where the mood swings are profoundly delivered to the discerning listener. The track starts with a solo guitar and then another guitar joins in (Eric claption, you were lucky. :), the way the guitar slides is out of the world). Depiction of Mysterious circumstances!!). Then bingo, its melancholy (backing vocals..One of the most heart rendering rendition by the chorus in Indian Film Music history, the other that came close to this one is the hey ram opening track.) I can go on and write for almost a page about the mood swings in the track but alas, i would like all of you to listen to this wonderfull track and decide for your self.
  
  http://www.coolgoose.com/music/song.php?id=116167
  
  
  2. 6 to 60 varai (1979) (Is it really 1979?).
  
  The interludes in this track can be ripped to be made into 10 songs. The flute, violin and the guitar together forges wonderful union and kicks cacophonies out of the world (Which is so evident in today’s musical forms?). The flute towards the end of the track further embellishes the track and had made this track one of my all time favorite.
  
  http://www.coolgoose.com/music/song.php?id=78040
  
  One thing that stands out is that the above tracks are distinctly IR'sh. A musical form which evolved with IR and i hope which doesnt end with IR.
  
  
• From: Music_lover (@ 202.141.98.226) on: Mon May 10 12:45:38 EDT 2004
  
  Prabhudas, did you manage to upload the ENGA THAMBI title score ? do let us know when you have done it
  
  
• From: Prabhudas (@ 24.239.166.14) on: Mon May 10 20:55:09 EDT 2004
  
  Music lover, sorry for the delay
  Check it out.... also added a bonus...
  Manaivi Ready Title score , little different but really cool...
  
  linky..
  http://www.coolgoose.com/music/song.php?id=116239
  
  search other songs for other BGM clips
  
  Enjoy
  
  Prabhudas
  
  
• From: Music_lover (@ 202.141.98.226) on: Mon May 10 21:33:14 EDT 2004
  
  Dear Prabhudas - Thanks a million
  
  
• From: Kum_Laden (@ 66.131.253.133) on: Mon May 10 21:54:22 EDT 2004
  
  Best thread i ever saw in this forum! way to go folks...best of luck
  
  
• From: Music_lover (@ 202.141.98.226) on: Mon May 10 22:31:14 EDT 2004
  
  Just listened to it - it was amazing - I request everyone to just have a listen - an example of the spontaneity that IR is capable of ! the music is original and so bloody flowing - it can fit into any top-notch Hollywood film, like say, "Sleepless in Seattle", "Pretty Woman", or any other modern day romantic flick!
  
  
• From: Srivatsan (@ 136.182.2.221) on: Tue May 11 00:39:04 EDT 2004
  
  This is turning out to be the best thread in months in newtfmpage ... Muisc-Lover, keep up the great work! Thanks a million!
  
  
• From: Music_lover (@ 202.141.98.226) on: Tue May 11 02:45:40 EDT 2004
  
  Is there anyone here familiar with 'Finite Automata' (FA) ? if so, is it possible to look for patterns in IR's music that would fit in any of the patterns already described/listed in FA ?
  
  If anyone can come up with something like that, it would be great and maybe even good enough for use as a publication is a good journal - that would also strengthen our support for IR's music on a global scale
  
  
• From: Music_lover (@ 202.141.98.226) on: Tue May 11 02:52:12 EDT 2004
  
  ERRATA - "publication is a good journal" should be "publication in a good journal"
  
  
• From: Music_lover (@ 202.141.98.226) on: Tue May 11 04:08:25 EDT 2004
  
  Here is an example that should be useful:
  
  A finite automaton is a sequence using a finite number of symbols or letters, generated according to precise rules. In the case of my Automatic Music, six percussionists each have only two notes, high and low, and the alphabet is limited to 1 (the low note), 2 (the high note), and 3 (a silence). The following rules, for example:
  1 -->1 1 2
  2 --> 3 2
  3 -->3 3
  begin with 1
  produce a sequence, which became "Canon," one of the 18 movements ofAutomatic Music.
  1
  112
  11211232
  11211232112112323332
  112112321121123233321121123211211232333233333332
  etc.
  Each transformation, each line, begins with two statements of the previous line; the rests, the repeated threes, grow longer with each transformation; and the process leads to a single sequence infinitely long. Of course, this sequence of digits does not yet determine which of the six instruments is playing what, or how many musicians are playing at once, and many other important compositional decisions remain to be made. I prefer to think of these not as compositional decisions, however, but rather as interpetative decisions. The composer is the automaton itself, and I do not wish to add subjective messages of my own, but simply to interpret, to find the arrangement and colors that allow the automaton itself to be heard as clearly and naturally as possible. Obviously, the percussionists continue this interpretative process.
  
  
• From: Music_lover (@ 202.141.98.226) on: Tue May 11 04:09:19 EDT 2004
  
  In this case, I decided to interpret the sequence as a canon, an additional musician entering with each transformation. By the time the fifth instrument begins the sequence, the first has already advanced to the last line shown above, and one can also hear, simultaneously, the interceding three transformations. Everyone is basically playing in unison, but the voices entering earlier are filling in more and more self-similar details, and it is clear that the progression must end with a rather long solo for the sixth player.
  
  Most logical sequences studied by mathematicians are similar to this one. Each transformation begins by stating the previous transformation, and the process advances toward a single limit sequence of infinite length, a "fixed point." Such sequences are relatively clear and neat, and often rather easy to understand and predict, so it was perhaps inevitable that most of the sequences I used when I began composing Automatic Music were of this type. Gradually, however, I began to find that the music was sometimes more interesting when it was produced by "twisted" sequences that were not so neat. Consider the following, for example:
  1 --> 2
  2 --> 3 1
  3 --> 1
  begin 2 3 1
  which makes its first six transformations in this way:
  2 3 1
  3 1 1 2
  1 2 2 3 1
  2 3 1 3 1 1 2
  3 1 1 2 1 2 2 3 1
  1 2 2 3 1 2 3 1 3 1 1 2
  2 3 1 3 1 1 2 3 1 1 2 1 2 2 3 1
  In this case I call the movement "Oneline," and interpret the sequence monophonically, but with particular motifs played as solos by particular players. 2 3 1, for example, is the motif for player VI, 1 1 2 is the motif for player I, and the longer underlined sequence, the sixth thransformation, is always played tutti.
  I had a most interesting discussion with the mathematician Jean-Paul Allouche, as I was composing this music. For some years Allouche has taken an interest in my efforts to write mathematical music, and in fact, I had already decided to dedicate Automatic Music to him as a token of my appreciation. As he looked at some of my "twisted" sequences, he couldn't understand why I was adding what to him were unnecessary intermediate steps. In this case, for example, he felt it made more sense to view the sequence three transformations at a time:
  1 --> 2 --> 31 --> 1 2
  2 --> 3 1 --> 1 2 --> 2 3 1
  3 --> 1 --> 2 --> 3 1
  and summarize the system as:
  1 --> 1 2
  2 --> 2 3 1
  3 --> 3 1
  Now the automaton develops:
  2 3 1
  2 3 1 3 1 1 2
  2 3 1 3 1 1 2 3 1 1 2 1 2 2 3 1
  etc.
  Each transformation begins by restating the previous transformation, the logic has been untwisted, we are moving toward a fixed point, and we are getting there three times faster. The only problem is that two thirds of the music has been lost, and every transformation begins in the same way. It is much more interesting when each phrase begins differently than the phrase just before, and where the earlier patterns are imbedded into the later ones in less obvious ways.
  It became clear that Allouche and I had different values here, coming from the two different disciplines we had learned. Allouche was looking for a general truth, a way of paring things down to the most essential elements, a way of penetrating the complications and reducing them to general theorems. I was looking for particular situations, curious twisted sets of rules, which produced forms and sequences that one could not find in any other way.
  ***
  Another example of a twisted automaton is a movement that I called "Hocket," because the percussionists weave between one another, never playing at the same instant. Here are the rules:
  1 3 --> 1 3 3 2
  3 2 --> 3 2 1 3
  begin 13
  The development continues like this,
  1 3
  1 3 3 2
  1 3 3 2 3 2 1 3
  1 3 3 2 3 2 1 3 3 2 1 3 1 3 3 2
  1 3 3 2 3 2 1 3 3 2 1 3 1 3 3 2 3 2 1 3 1 3 3 2 1 3 3 2 3 2 1 3
  and the way the isntrumental parts come together, or rather, never come together, can be seen if I line up the first, fourth and fifth transformations, showing how the audible ones and twos never coincide with the silent threes:
  1 3 3 2 3 2 1 3 3 2 1 3 1 3 3 2
  1 3 3 2 3 2 1 3 3 2 1 3 1 3 3 2 3 2 1 3 1 3 3 2 1 3 3 2 3 2 1 3
  1 3 3 2 3 2 1 3 3 2 1 3 1 3 3 2 3 2 1 3 ...
  This sequence also approaches a "fixed point," and it exactly doubles its length with each transformation, but it is twisted in other ways. There is no rule for transforming 2, one must transform pairs of letters instead of individual letters, and it is difficult to see where the sequence is going. For Allouche, I was again adding unnecessary complications, because all that is really happening here, as far as he was concerned, could be described as:
  a = 1 3
  b = 3 2
  a --> a b
  b --> b a
  begin a
  Viewed as a binary sequence, in this way, the progression is simply the Thue-Morse sequence, which is well studied and rather uninteresting today for a mathematician. My sequence was essentially a cliché, and not original at all. But of course, I would never have found this music, if I had been thinking about a and b in the correct logical way. By twisting the sequence into my three-digit automaton, and transforming pairs of letters instead of individual letters, I was able to find a unique hocketing pattern.
  If there is a general observation to be made here, which may summarize what I have already said, it is probably simply this: Even for a composer like myself, who wishes to allow his music to be completely deterministic and predictable, a product of little mathematical machines, music remains essentially different from mathematics. If a good mathematical theorem represents something that can be found in many places, a generality, I would say that a good piece of music is something that can only be found in one place, some twisted particular case.
  References
  Allouche and Johnson, Finite automata and morphisms in assisted musical composition, Journal of New Music Research, no. 24 (1995), 97 - 108.
  
  
• From: Srivatsan (@ 129.188.33.221) on: Tue May 11 04:37:25 EDT 2004
  
  Music_Lover, that post was simply great.
  
  

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