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Raja's theoritical Approach:

Topic started by D.Srikanth (@ slip-32-101-16-226.il.us.ibm.net) on Sun Oct 4 11:31:55 EDT 1998.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Raja's theoritical Approach

Yesterday I was in a telephonic discussion with Shashi - (also a DF'er) about Raja's decline in the market.

Essence of our discussion:

We all know Raja writes his score without touching any instrument. This has paved a way for Raja to become very alogorithamic. He is forced into this as he is not hearing it, meaning his scores are very theoritical. A good western classical musician will predict Raja's score after hearing few bars.
He has to change this type of composing, he has to compose something new using his HEART instead of his BRAIN . We were able to calculate the bar lengths of the counter points and BGM that he would place, everything Proved to be very very theoritical approach.
Though theoritically scores are complicated, over a period of time it starts sounding the same for a musical illitrate (masses)

Many of his greatest fans are here this DF (including me), as a responsible fan we can find more about this and convey the message to him somehow.


Statutory Warning: This topic is not to hurt Raja's ablity, there is no doubt in his ablity .I know the fact writing theoritical music is not easy. Theoritically anything is complicated.


D.Srikanth

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: Srikanth (@ slip-32-101-16-193.il.us.ibm.net) on: Tue Oct 6 07:09:51 EDT 1998
  
  Hi,
  "Some (like Srikanth) want to question his capabilty, hurt his ego"
  
  Hey this is not my intention, I just want to chase out DEVA and the gang and tfm should live
  Theoritical music is a trap, I want Raja to come out of it and redo things what he was doing sometime ago.
  
  Srikanth
  
  
• From: M.VIJAY KRISHNA (@ pix030.eagle.org) on: Tue Oct 6 09:49:02 EDT 1998
  
  I am really very very pleased to know that many music lovers have so much faith in Illaiyaraja that u want him to give us his best, to all of tfm fans let me tell u if think that raja's music from 90's onwards is not popular or his music is algorathamic, bla bla,etc. please try to listen to his songs once again I donot know if u had listen to the songs from the film Moga Mul, Avatharam,Kadal Roja,etc.I trust that IR will give us more melodious and good music.
  
  
• From: Sridhar Seetharaman (@ 128.96.140.26) on: Tue Oct 6 10:24:37 EDT 1998
  
  My opinion is that Srikanth is in the process of understanding the different aspects of composing. In the process, he has dug deep into Rahman, Illayaraja and MSV. This thread is a mere reflection of what he has understood so far. He is trying to share his understanding with other people. Actually he is proceeding in the right direction. I have watched one of Raja's earlier interviews. He talked about how he is used to rip apart MSV, SDB and Madan Mohan's music etc, to understand their style. Eventually, he realised that everybody had come up with their own idioms which are unique to them, still within the grammar of music. They would apply the idioms as and when possible depending on the situation. He also continued to say that his own musical idions are known to all his orchestra members. They could very well orchestrate a song which will sound like his music. But he quickly added that they did not come up the idioms. They could only understand and perform what he has done. I listened to Srikanth's music "Iravu paadagan". In my opinion, the song has "Ilam Kalai velai" has an unusual melody style which seems to be unique to Srikanth. He is getting there. The orchestration does not sound different from idioms used by Raja or Rahman. This is alright. To me, he has made a bold step in composing. Eventually, I am positive that he will have his own style in orchestration.
  
  
• From: Sridhar Seetharaman (@ 128.96.140.26) on: Tue Oct 6 10:33:24 EDT 1998
  
  Vijay,
  
  The songs in Moga Mull are good. No doubt. The orchestration used, is not any different from songs from SinduBhairavi. This is the point Srikant is trying to make. I love the songs from "Mogha Mull". But As Srikanth said , "However good you are, no matter how complicated and sophisticated your compositions are, they start sounding the same for the mass". This happened to all composers. This will also happen to compositions by Saint Thiagaraja.
  Mind you, all these composers (Raja, Rahman) etc have not rewritten the music grammar. For e.g, Stravinsky and Debussy came up with polytonal music. Saint Thiagaraja formulated the structure for Krithis. Raja and Rahman are merely applying the ideas like counterpoint, invented by maestros like Bach.
  
  
• From: Sridhar Seetharaman (@ 128.96.140.26) on: Tue Oct 6 11:07:07 EDT 1998
  
  I would also like to add that Srikanth and other well wishers of Raja expect him to change his style. This has never happened in the history of music. MSV stuck to his style when Raja was making waves. R D Burman stuck to his style when he was invited again to compose for "1942 : love story". If you listen to "1942: Love story", there was nothing new in RDB's style. People liked it because
  1. It had new singers.
  2. They had not heard RDB's music for a while.
  
  Comparing with other music directors, Raja has churned out musical idioms more than anybody else in the industry. Starting from 1975, every two years, you would see a new Raja. It stopped in 1990. Well, the machine can not go on forever.
  
  I have a analogy to make here. In tennis, usually younger players game is interesting because they take lot of risks. When they hit the age 30, they start playing more volley games. It looks good. But, it is more boring. That is what Raja is doing. Perfectly written scores. But dull, because we have listened to it over and over again. He is a baseline player now.
  
  
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 129.252.22.246) on: Tue Oct 6 11:35:00 EDT 1998
  
  sridhat seetharaman,
  have u listened to aruna girana from guru or ponveyilil from yaathramozhi. after listening to these 2 i cannot admit that raja is boring or dull. in fact the reverse of what u said might be true. the compositions might seem to be the same for perhaps people like srikanth who are technically
  delving deep into the scores and finding similiarities in bar lengths etc. but for a common man who is unaware of all this a song like aruna girana is completely different. IR has used trumpets, oboe horns, percussion instruments etc.
  this shows that if properly inspired he can still come up with new scores. how about raakamma from 1991? the starting violin piece was completely different and amazing. how about ennulle ennulle from valli in 1993? the different start to the song using mrudangam?and u say raja became stale in the early 1990's.
  i again reiterate that raja has always surprised the music lover. even srikanth was impressed with aruna girana from guru. he did not feel that it was repetetive or dull or boring.
  so the machine has not stopped in 1990. it is still
  running and would continue to do so.
  
  
  
• From: Sridhar Seetharaman (@ 128.96.140.26) on: Tue Oct 6 12:08:54 EDT 1998
  
  Vijay,
  
  It is five new ideas per year vs 50 new ideas per year. No doubt, GURU' music has some new ideas never heard before in fusion music. Raja surprised me again in "Yaathraa mozhi". Just too good. Raja never had to be inspired to give good music. Ninaivellam Nithya ? What a music for a stupid movie ? Brilliant work by Raja. Please do not hold me on exact years. The frequency of good songs came down definitely in the 1990's. "Ennulae " song is my favorite. It is typical Raja style not any different from "Putham Pudhu Kaalai". It is whether you choose to listen to "Putham pudhu Kaalai" or "Ennulae". It is listener's choice. You could listen to both. But on the other hand, "Sundari Kannaal Oru Sethi" is unique. There was no song after or before that song. The second interlude counterpoints are too good. I want to be objective here and just look at his music. I don't care which movie inspires Raja and which does not ? That is beyond me. He makes a decision to score for a movie for various reasons. I want to just listen to music. He has scored great music for uninspiring movies like Kokarakko, Kozhi Koovithu, Maganae Maganae etc. He is a baseline player right now. I can not afford to pick a kaset of Raja and be confident that the music will be different. Those days are gone. As longs as he does not reduce the number of trash movies he works for, there is no reason for anybody to attribute the music to the poor storyline of the movie.
  
  BTW, what I am telling here will also happen to all composers including Srikanth, Rahman, fifteen years from now.
  
  Let us not get into defending Raja. There is now reason. We go always go back and listen to his best works. BTW, I always have "Jhonny" in my car. Anytime, evertime, I can listen to it without getting bored.
  
  
  
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 129.252.22.246) on: Tue Oct 6 12:43:09 EDT 1998
  
  i think we are confusing melody with creativity in composing here. raja has experimented with a 5
  beat pattern in meetadha oru veenai which is an experiment. the whole song itself IMO was not really melodious. now if u want real melody and melody alone u are right we might have to go back to the eighties. but we are not actually talking about the melody content or whether raja has become stale or not. this has been discussed many times before.
  we are talking about the different experiments that IR is continuing to do even at this stage in his career. and most of his experiments happen to be for good films like guru. u can't expect raja to give good music for crappy films 25 years in a row. for that matter no one can.
  
  it all depends on what is u'r definition of a good song.
  
  next, "... the frequency of good songs came down in the 90's...."
  
  but so did the no of films IR composed. while he was composing 56 films per year in 1980's he was hardly composing 25 films per year in the 90s.
  i still remember the pongal of 1993 when simultaneously marupadiyum, walter vetrivel, kovil kaalai, chinna mapillai and thirumathi pazhanichami of IR was released. most of the songs in these films were hits. this at a time when IR was supposed to have been 'busy' composing for the symphony. and half of the above mentioned films were bull$hit.
  
  and to me ennulle ennulle is completely different sounding from putham puthu kaalai. just for the sake of argument pl. do not make comparisons.
  ennule ennule closely resembles keeravani whereas putham puthu kaalai is more of a western classical type composition. the interlude music in putham puthu kasalai is completely different from ennulle ennulle.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
• From: Anand Mahadevan (@ freedum.proxy.lucent.com) on: Tue Oct 6 12:50:56 EDT 1998
  
  sridhar,
  A valid point that one can'nt buy raja's cassete with confidence.I always used to wonder why he
  is churning out junk when he very well knows that it ai'nt done properly.This is a very mysterious part of raja's psyche.
  Is it just commitment(professional)?I do'nt think he's done.He has a lot of stuff left in him and am sure we will be in for a big treat.
  Intrestingly, has raja let down any movie with his music?I hope he stops doing music for films and gets into releasing albums where his creativity can blossom without constraints.
  
  
• From: Shashi (@ eed02990.mayo.edu) on: Tue Oct 6 12:56:35 EDT 1998
  
  Dear Sridhar Seetharaman
  
  What you have said is definitely possible. It may be that Srikanth and myself (just because we try to compose) have dissected Raja's music more than the general music listener and hence the accusation. I understand that every MD has to come up with a unique grammar and they pretty much stick on to it.
  
  What I am trying to say is because Raja first of all works without any restrictions--i.e., works first before the lyricist. This is tremendously advantages especially for the BGM/rerecording part of the movie.
  
  However for the songs my feeling is that even when he tries to be different--it is again his own thinking of how different should be--see my point. OTOH if presented with something different which usually happens if it is somebody else's thought first--like the lyricist--then even though Raja does not admit they would be different than what he would have imagined it to be and hence would force him to be innovative.
  
  I am in complete agreement about Jhonny. I have the Priya-Jhonny combi from Inreco. Haven't yet bored me. But look at the composition style and may be there is a reason behind this.
  
  For example Oru iniya manathu.... in Jhonny. I am not sure how this was done but I would guess the songs were written before they were composed. I say this because the length of the lines are different. 'Mudivillaathathu' in the 2nd stanza is by itself a line-wow! again the last two words something like isaipaadungal and uravaadungal are again two independent lines with complex brighas just to compensate for the beat to which the song is set in.
  
  This is what I would like to see more. I am sure Raja is capable and he is probably like Hanuman (who is supposed to be ignorant of his own strength) or he just does not want to try hard enough. I will let the individual DFers decide which of the two he is. But personally, I think he is both. (Others may consider not wanting to try hard equivallent to playing a baseline game--but I think there is some complacency as well)
  
  Bye
  
  

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