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Great Impact of ARR on Indian contemporary Music and IsaiGnani

Topic started by The Fan (@ spider-we053.proxy.aol.com) on Thu Nov 12 02:16:07 EST 1998.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

By now we must appreciate the positive qualities of ARR's musical genre or style and interpretations. ARR has single handendly made film music and that too, Tamil film music one of the most favorite discussion topics anywhere. He reengineered or turned around the concept of film music in India and made it a pop culture. Though there is something left to be desired in his creativity, he has forever changed the landscape of Indian film music. Taking it to a different platform, he has escaped comparisons and stands at the heap of a new generation of musical presentation and thought. I feel glad that ARR happened at the right time to Indian films. Otherwise look what might have happened to Isaignani, who probably would've lost the inspiration to stay around. ARR's has woken up IR from his classical mode and made IR change mode to a trendy style, eg: KM and MVU, each filmy score of IR getting more experimental and in tune with current taste for music. In other words, I personally thank ARR for being the EYES AND EARS OF IR. New rhythms, extremely different melodic structures. etc.. In addition, ARR is gaining on to be the next icon of music in Indian film music, maybe not in Tamil film music, however. This is what we need. New persectives, a 360 degree difference in styles. In this thread, it will be beneficial to talk about how ARR brought in new things that made us wonder why didn't our other composers attempt this, so easy, so out there, why didn't they. And,difficult innovations that challenged even IR. This will discussion should be purely to discuss the impact of ARR's contributions and his impact on IR's creative styles.

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: Nitin (@ macewen.cs.berkeley.edu) on: Mon Nov 16 14:02:42 EST 1998
  
  To Nirupama:
  
  "If you guys think that using a few synthesizers or electronic instruments can be termed as Rahmanish, then I would think that it is Rahman who followed IR"
  
  It is not this use of e-instruments and mixers that is termed as "Rahmanish" or "Rahmanesque". What people mean by a "Rahmanesque" song is that, the style of arrangements is a-la Rahman. A good example of Rahmanesque songs would be the songs from the Hindi movie, Jab Dil Kisi Pe Aata Hai, starring Nagarjuna and Tabu. I think this was a original telgu movie that was dubbed in Hindi. The music was by Sandeep Chowta.
  
  
• From: Raja_learning_from_ARR??_No_way (@ pup36.stanford.edu) on: Mon Nov 16 14:02:56 EST 1998
  
  Pradeep Ananth,
  No : I just cannot agree with your perception that ARR is an embodiment of professionalism, where IR is in some-ways lacking in this dept.
  This is a highly subjective opinion and I cannot take to your simplistic equating of professionalism with acceptance of technological sophistry.
  When Bach and Mozart composed their music, they did not have any of the "Macs" or the "Pentiums" . But, then they were able to come out with sublime music, that has stood the test of time and continues to enthrall (select???) listeners all over the world. Their music had the kind of impact that it has not because of publicity/ technical genius, but because of the inspiration that they brought to their works.
  IMO, this quality of inspiration is absent from ARR's work esp in his latest albums. What then is the use of technical refinements??
  Over-emphasis on technology opposed to music-innovation is I feel an imp reason for the utter degradation of quality of ARR's works :-((
  Initial works had a balance of innovation and technology, perhaps due to the initial enthusiasm, but later works only had the technique, without the soul.
  
  Lastly, if you restrict yourself to musical innovation alone, I am sure that there is no style/idiom of music that ARR explored and IR did not (leaving out the trashy bhangra numbers that ARR seems to churn out dime a dozen).
  
  
• From: Nitin (@ macewen.cs.berkeley.edu) on: Mon Nov 16 14:05:47 EST 1998
  
  Many people keep on mentioning these "bhangra" numbers by ARR. How many bhangra numbers has ARR composed besides "Chaiyya Chaiiya"? May be one or two.Which is practically none:)
  
  
• From: Srinivas (@ pup36.stanford.edu) on: Mon Nov 16 14:15:39 EST 1998
  
  IMO, the Rahmnesque kind of arrangements are common among the younger generation of composers. This does not in any way mean that Rehman is being copied or imitated. The similarity exists because the younger MDs place a hevier emphasis on rythms and recording techniques.
  Again I did not find any actual resemblance between the songs (interludes and accompaniments included ) between the songs of "Jab dil kisi pe aata hai) and any of ARR numbers.
  
  
• From: Pradeep Ananth (@ slip129-37-163-174.on.ca.ibm.net) on: Mon Nov 16 14:44:51 EST 1998
  
  ARR's music is a layered kind of music. I would like to take this discussion on ARR and IR on a "computerish" bent. I have discussed this with many others and found that it gave some interesting perspectives on the styles of these two icons.IMO IR is like DOS/Windows and ARR is like Unix. DOS/Windows are intuitive and have simple commands and easily naviagble menus. On the other hand UNIX is more complex and as such when one gets into Unix he/she feels that it just makes life a lot worse by making even simple operations sound complex. But once one gets used to Unix you start liking its complexity and intricacies. People have been trained to listen to IR style music for aeons that when ARR tries some wacky compositions, it is but natural that it become difficult to appreciate the new dimensions and aspects that comes along with it. So IMHO ARR is to the TFM world what UNIX is to the computer world.
  
  
• From: Oh_really!!! (@ pup36.stanford.edu) on: Mon Nov 16 15:12:01 EST 1998
  
  IMO, this comparison doesn't make any sense whatsoever. :-(((
  
  
• From: Pradeep (@ slip129-37-153-206.on.ca.ibm.net) on: Mon Nov 16 16:04:23 EST 1998
  
  Thats really Bad. Try to think harder.
  :))
  
  
• From: Srinath (@ ss02.nc.us.ibm.com) on: Mon Nov 16 16:13:41 EST 1998
  
  Pradeep Ananth:
  I am still wondering how you could have got this so mixed up !!! ARR and complex ? IR and simple ? Look, you are an ARR admirer and I am an IR admirer. Without going into specifics as to why, which will ultimately end up in each of us sniping at the other, I will tell you this much - please try to lay out ARR influences on TFM and IR without trying to compare the two of them. It is a tough job, I agree. But in the long run it will save us a lot of heartburn. I am holding back a stronger reaction simply because I do not want people to start crowing again about how IR fans vitiate the atmosphere in the DF. Your comments border on prejudice and innocence - either way, I find them unacceptable. Please, let's get back to the topic and discuss only about ARR's influence and how it revived a flagging TFM - and not debate on whether ARR is better than IR - in your opinion he is and in mine he is not.
  
  
• From: Pradeep (@ slip129-37-153-206.on.ca.ibm.net) on: Mon Nov 16 16:33:04 EST 1998
  
  Sri:
  FOr one thing I can tell you that not once in my posting, have I mentioned that ARR is superior to IR. I wonder how you came to the conclusion that I am prejudiced towards ARR. All along I have tried to come up with as objective a viewpoint as possible on this issue. I have a great opinion on IR as well. No one can forget that he was the only Indian to get an opportunity to compose for the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra.When I say IR produces simple music its you who interpreted "simple" music as something of a lesser grade. To clarify, By simple music I mean music made not with sophisticated gadgets producing funky sounds and mixing and matching different ragas in a single song etc. That according to me is the fundamental influence of ARR on TFM.
  And I cant understand whatever caused you a heartburn. I am sorry if I had mentioned anything derogatory of IR. But I cant see where I did so in any of my postings. The whole idea of comparing IR and ARR is an exercise in futility. Here we just analyse the different aspects of their music and their influence on TFM. Hope that settles it.
  cheers.
  
  
• From: SR Kaushik (@ elroy.cs.wisc.edu) on: Mon Nov 16 16:38:57 EST 1998
  
  Pradeep Ananth: I think we need to be a little clear on terms - when you mean by simplicity I think you are referring to simplicity with regard to recording techniques. Am I right?
  
  If you mean technical simplicity (ie chords, counterpoints, etc), then even the worst anti IR guy cannot deny that his songs are far from simple.
  
  
• From: SR Kaushik (@ elroy.cs.wisc.edu) on: Mon Nov 16 16:45:15 EST 1998
  
  Pradeep: Adding further to my prior posting, the simplicity that I mean applies, IMO, to old hindi composers like SDB or C.Ramachandra. They gave great tunes without sophisticated orchestration. Although I'm not sure, I think even MSV would come under this category.
  
  
• From: Mukund (@ sdwwwgw01.sd.nmp.nokia.com) on: Mon Nov 16 16:50:19 EST 1998
  
  Hi guys,
  
  
  I have not been contributing so often in TFM page these days. But this discussion has dragged me into it.
  IMO,
  IR's music - slackened during a brief period in 90's when ARR came into that slot and cemented his place in TFM world. This slackening may have been due to a variety of reasons, but primary one is motivation. This arrival of ARR came as a pleasant surprise to so many music lovers, but certainly I feel, IR felt jolted by the wave that was created by that.
  
  I personally believe, IR is a thoroughly professional Music director and this quality certainly would have rubbed on a whole lot of musicians who worked under him.
  
  This is when, I believe his competitive spirits would have been awakened. Because after a brief period of around a year after ARR came, his music (to me) had all the quality it used to have and in fact it has been improving steadily.
  
  The only influence ARR had on IR was the impact he created through his arrival into TFM as a music director and thus rekindling IR's competive spirits. (Good for us :-))
  
  Otherwise the only influences I see in IR's music is HH singing more frequently. I have been steadily following both IR and ARR's music (IR upto Ponnu vettukkaaran, etc. and ARR upto Uyire) and after listening to Uyire I felt IR's influences on ARR's music in Nenjinile and Pongaatrile. I felt a spontaneity in these songs which I had not felt before. This to me indicates the evolution of ARR as more complete MD.
  
  Beacause most of his earlier songs always sounded as if different pieces were pieced together to fill a song.
  
  Another thing is I feel the present IR's music is an improved version of the great IR's music of 80's in melody and orchestration balance.
  
  IR I feel has strongly reasserted his own brand of music with Poonthottam, MVU, Desiya Geetham, Poonu Veetukkaran, etc.
  
  Mukund
  
  
• From: Nandu (@ hqinbh1.ms.com) on: Mon Nov 16 19:29:02 EST 1998
  
  Dear Pradeep Ananth,
  
  I think you are really mistaken when you say that
  IR's compositions are simpler than that of ARR. In
  my humble opinion I think you have also reversed your comparisons. ARR's music is like using a crappy windows tool but IR's music is like Unix (without the 2038 bug!). IR's music are full of half notes and quarter notes which in my opinion add gloss to his tunes.
  
  What is layered music after all? ARR records music in different tracks layer by layer. But it is just a recording tewchnique and not something associated with music. IR is a genius in western classical music. Isn't that form of music layered? Take Raaja Parvai for instance... The two outstanding violin pieces in that movie isn't that layered? Or take Mouna ragam... the BGM in that Karthik's jeep chase sequence. Is that not layered? IR can not only compose music but he can also arrang an orchestra. As a matter of fact the song Oh..Butterfly was composed and arranged by him. You can hardly count the number of music directors who can do it. I for one have seen him compose music and that man writes different pieces (like chord percussion string pieces) even without humming a wee bit! IR is a great musician but his recording techniques are inferior to ARR's. ARR is a great sound engineer but he is not as great a musician as IR.
  
  Many people also talk about ARR's use of bass guitar and intricate chord patterns. But in my opinion Raja is superior except that you can hardly hear it because of his poor recording quality. Take 'Eniya Malargal Malarum' from ponthottam or 'Thendral vanthu' from Avatharam...you would realize that those pieces were outstanding! Hence technically looking at them purely as musicians IR is streets ahead. But when you factor certain extraneous factors like recording etc., ARR is probably as good as IR. Hence IR is like unix (-2038 bug) and ARR is like a GUI tool.
  
  Take out electronics... computers and MIDI devices out of ARR and make them play befor a live audience you will find that IR is from a different planet!
  
  Raja raja than!
  
  
  

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