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IR or ARR

Topic started by M.Anand (@ ihproxy1.proxy.lucent.com) on Tue Jan 18 01:03:04 EST 2000.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

hi all, I am Anand from bangalore and a new visitor to the tfm page. I am a great fan of both ARR and IR. I browsed through all the earlier threads on ARR and IR. It seems to me that there are quite a few anti ARRs out here.

Let me tell you something about IRs music. IRs music became popular and sounded different because he tried to bring in a westernization of Carnatic ragas in his songs. Even a dappanguthu was in Lathaangi or sivaranjani. That actually made the difference. Otherwise he is no great MD. One might argue that such a westernization or incorporation of a carnatic raga in a dappanguthu or jazz is something that demands great applause. But IR doesn't deserve that because, if u say u are tuning a song in a particular raagam, you have to bring out the nuances, the laya and bhaava of the raagam in to the song. Just traversing the swaras in the raagam here and there does not mean that u have tuned a song in that raagam. Ilayaraaja has done just that, a mere traversal through the swaras. In many places, there were apaswaras also. ARR has tuned very few songs based on Carnatic ragas but they were classics. For example Mettu podu in Anjali is a beautiful song in Ananda Bhairavi. He has brought out every nuance of the raagam in that song. Minsaara Kanna in padaiyappa is an excellent piece in vasantha. En mel vizhunda mazhai tuliye is again a beautiful piece in kaapi. A real mix of the east and west. That is what u call fusion. Ilayaraaja boasts of having composed songs in rare raagas like chala nattai, kanakangi etc. For example pani vizhum malar vanam in chala nattai is again a pure note traversal. There was no attempt to bring out the nuances in the raaga. So IR knew how to make songs sound good but ARR gives a fine polish to each and every one of his songs. IR composed music for 700 odd films. Hey Ram is his 785th film. Considering 7 songs per movie, he has tuned almost 5500 songs. Huge number indeed but hardly 5% of those songs are listenable others are 100% pure junk. But 99.9% of ARRs songs are listenable and they are also good numbers. What do you say about this?

Regards,
Anand

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: fan (@ 216.190.255.35) on: Mon Oct 23 12:57:10 EDT 2000
  
  Trend, your last few words were good, thats what I have been asking here for the past few years now.
  
  U:Take it easy... just belive me, I am selective these days :)
  
  Arul: basic groups :
  1. monophonic ,
  indian, Japanese,chinese, some music from africa
  
  
  2. Polyphonic
  Western or better way is most non-eastern music comes under group, this has 2 or more notes played at the same time in harmony.
  
  It is a known fact that our TFM mds blend both.
  
  
  
  please don't repsond to this. i don't intend to write anymore in this thread in the near future.
  it is usally 10 days...we will see.:)))))
  
  
• From: fan (@ 216.190.255.35) on: Mon Oct 23 13:01:11 EDT 2000
  
  
  Trend,
  your last few words were good, thats what I have been asking here for the past few years now.
  
  "In comparison,are MSV and ARR's exploration of genres limited? "
  
  
  
  
• From: sabesan (@ 63.203.255.254) on: Mon Oct 23 13:10:19 EDT 2000
  
  Sriks.... i have a doubt.... we all know MSV ruled TFM..... why did we see a change in the RULER when IR came in? did MSV have EGO? why did people not hear MSV? iam 100% sure MSV did not have EGO.... it was simply that people's taste changed..... and similar is the case now.... how do u relate this to IR's attitude? even if IR had an attitude just like u and others say, iam sure that ARR would have come into the picture.... its the people's taste that changed on both the occassions (when IR came into the picture and when ARR came into the picture).... don't link attitude and other unrelated things to it...
  
  Trend i have a question for u..... in one of the responses u have said that ARR needs a challenge and so only u need IR to make a comeback (may be i have not put the words correctly).... enna Sir, just 10 years and u want ur favourite MD to have a challenge so that he (ARR) performs well? IR was in the field for 20 years before he got bored.... do u mean to say just within 50 movies ARR has lost interest or something??????
  
  and guys please please stay cool and argue.... pls do not take anything personally....
  
  
• From: Music fan (@ 208.154.130.13) on: Mon Oct 23 13:24:23 EDT 2000
  
  Trend
  
  I reiterate. The topic "IR or ARR" is not valid. IR and ARR belong to different generations. The youth like ARR's music and one among this generation (M.Anand) has displayed his emotional outburst on ARR by starting this topic. It is no use comparing IR and ARR. It is silly to compare MSV and IR or IR and ARR. The people's taste, technology and various other things have changed vastly from generation to generation and it is no use comparing musicians from different timelines. It is like comparing Chinnappa Devar with Sivaji Ganesan, Sivaji with Kamal Hassan, Kamal Hassan and Arvind Swami. If you are ardent fan of ARR you should start analyzing his songs and provide some good info about his music like many others do in this forum.
  
  Thanks
  
  
• From: Trend (@ 216.68.113.227) on: Mon Oct 23 13:24:58 EDT 2000
  
  Sabesan,
  
  I'm as cool as cucumber except for that one incident with Arul a few minutes back.
  
  ARR is already the best in TFM right now.His thirst for creativity in TFM may decrease if he is not challenged.We can already see he is also venturing into different projects(Bombay dreams for instance)What if IR gives two memorable hit movies?
  
  It would enable ARR to perform more time and also better TFM.Right now,I'm not complaining about his music though Tenaali could have been better.
  
  I also would want him to do a film like "Anthi Mantharai" at least once in 5 years.
  
  It's just that I think ARR could do much better than what he's doing right now.
  
  Fan,
  
  Looks like you started explaining something about MSV and ARR's exploration of genres.I'm eager to hear it.
  
  
  Trend
  
  
• From: fan (@ 216.190.255.35) on: Mon Oct 23 13:28:56 EDT 2000
  
  sabesan
  Msv's downfall was due to change in Tamil films, there was great depression in Tamil movies from 1970-75, and Directors did not know what to do? (This is explained well in mukthas book)
  
  Also Msv was giving music even in 1980's, there are movies that did not come out due to many problems.
  
  Basically people who were with MSV did not move, even KB moved only with Sindhu Bhairavi, S.A. Chandrasekar, R.C.Sakthi, K.Shanker, Gemini, many did not move till mid 1980’s
  
  Msv was giving songs till late 80’s; you might have not heard many,, he was busy.
  (Also I did have newtfmpage.com during those days to make some unknown things popular.)
  He was getting old MSV, till date MSV has a good rapport with many producers and directors.
  
  But Story of Ir is totally different, many big producers and directors moved away over night why?,
  
  Many call KB or Bharathi raja or Mani Rathanam as traitors, but surely these folks have done lot of Tamil film. I cannot discount or write off their talent them just for the sake of one man.
  
  If one or 2 person stays away it is ok, we can ignore, life is bound to such fights, but everyone avoid him why? I don’t know, do you say the entire film industry has a grudge! If so! Why?
  
  
• From: Trend (@ 216.68.113.227) on: Mon Oct 23 13:36:04 EDT 2000
  
  Music Fan,
  
  I have very limited music knowledge compared to some of the people here.I'm learning a lot of stuff here.If I start a musical analysis on ARR it would seem very silly.
  
  When we listen to music we listen to MSV,IR and ARR.Even though the music(influenced by the periods) are different there should be some parameters which would be common in different times.
  
  We should analyze what are the common parameters and start comparing.We need help from musically sound people for this.
  
  Thanks,
  Trend
  
  
• From: sabesan (@ 63.203.255.254) on: Mon Oct 23 13:39:49 EDT 2000
  
  Sriks..... then i will also argue that IR does give us a lot of good numbers even now (except few like Karisakattu.... i remember he used to give such junk once in a while at his peak too).... tell me wasn't HeyRam good enough or Barathy good enough? but did people respond to any of these albums? people are now satisfied a lot with Deva and SAR - don't ask me why..... even if all the director's come back to IR, iam pretty much sure now that people are not going to listen.... because that is what is happening today.... people hear to something called MUSIC today and they are satisfied with that.... "yaar Sir IR pattellam keepa eppa".... maybe IR is old now :-)
  
  and wait i dont' agree with u on MSV getting old and other's..... its basically the people's taste - nothing else that has changed.... and we need to accept the reality..... whatever IR gives - people are not going to listen.... "meetadha oru veenai", "niram pirithu partheen", "azhagee un mugam paraamal" - were'nt these GEMS? tell me how much percent in INDIA will know about these songs? 1% or 2% or even less than that....
  
  well, i don't want to call KB or BR or MR as traitors.... if they are traitors then so is IR - cause i would say he does'nt use SPB or SJ or PS nowadays - so do we call him a traitor? that logic is total nonsense.....
  
  
  
• From: ahmed (@ 202.144.64.4) on: Mon Oct 23 13:45:08 EDT 2000
  
  IR, from the year 1977 TO 1990, for nearly 14 years composed music for over 560 tamil movies with an yearly average of 40 movies.ARR after 8 years has just crossed 50 in TFM. So do not make any comparisons as their style and approach are different.In real life sleepless ARR is a RAKKOZHIwhere as IR is UDHAYAKALA SEVAL. No comparison between the two is required.
  Only in MINUS point they are alike .IR brought in such malayalee singers like Jensi,Minmini,Sunanda and did THAMIZH KOLAI which ARR is also doing with the help of few north indian singers.Both have some unique COMPLEX.( Is it some sort of Inferiority Complex, in the name of PUDHUMAI???
  Ali Ahmed...
  
  
• From: Music fan (@ 208.154.130.13) on: Mon Oct 23 13:47:38 EDT 2000
  
  Trend
  
  If I listen to "Vividh Bharathi" at Madras, I only get to listen to ARR, Deva, SAR, YSR, Sirpi, Adityan etc. I can only listen to some songs of IR and very less of MSV. Such is the trend now. The youth do not get a listen to MSV at all. My 20 year old cousin is a great fan of ARR, he has heard very less of MSV that he does not even remember the songs. Can he talk/discuss about MSV's music composing style/abiilty? That is my point. The generation is different, the tastes have changed. The topic that goes on comparing if MSV is greater than IR or vice versa, or IR is greater than ARR or vice versa will end up only in unnecessary squabbles. It is like your cricket comparison. Comparing Don Bradman with Gavaskar and Gavaskar with Sachin Tendulkar trying to prove which one is greater than the other will bear no fruit.
  
  
• From: fan (@ 216.190.255.35) on: Mon Oct 23 13:51:58 EDT 2000
  
  Sabasab...
  I never told ir is not talented, talent cannot dry! up. Basically my point was , he has a huge attidute problem, his fans dont think it is big problem, they are happy with his songs, good for them, ,but a producers and directors..are
  bound to think that they are being insulted.
  So they look for a place where there is better customer service, As a producer/director, If he gets good music (good music is subjective, for them it is good music) along with the good customer service,...why not go for it.
  
  Sabesan, also you are picking few examples in songs, You have asked
  
  "how much percent in INDIA will know about these songs?
  
  The answer is simple, there are more numbers of good songs coming out from ARR.
  If ir is able to give more good numbers, hey! you know what! this 2% will go up!...
  
  

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