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IR or ARR

Topic started by M.Anand (@ ihproxy1.proxy.lucent.com) on Tue Jan 18 01:03:04 EST 2000.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

hi all, I am Anand from bangalore and a new visitor to the tfm page. I am a great fan of both ARR and IR. I browsed through all the earlier threads on ARR and IR. It seems to me that there are quite a few anti ARRs out here.

Let me tell you something about IRs music. IRs music became popular and sounded different because he tried to bring in a westernization of Carnatic ragas in his songs. Even a dappanguthu was in Lathaangi or sivaranjani. That actually made the difference. Otherwise he is no great MD. One might argue that such a westernization or incorporation of a carnatic raga in a dappanguthu or jazz is something that demands great applause. But IR doesn't deserve that because, if u say u are tuning a song in a particular raagam, you have to bring out the nuances, the laya and bhaava of the raagam in to the song. Just traversing the swaras in the raagam here and there does not mean that u have tuned a song in that raagam. Ilayaraaja has done just that, a mere traversal through the swaras. In many places, there were apaswaras also. ARR has tuned very few songs based on Carnatic ragas but they were classics. For example Mettu podu in Anjali is a beautiful song in Ananda Bhairavi. He has brought out every nuance of the raagam in that song. Minsaara Kanna in padaiyappa is an excellent piece in vasantha. En mel vizhunda mazhai tuliye is again a beautiful piece in kaapi. A real mix of the east and west. That is what u call fusion. Ilayaraaja boasts of having composed songs in rare raagas like chala nattai, kanakangi etc. For example pani vizhum malar vanam in chala nattai is again a pure note traversal. There was no attempt to bring out the nuances in the raaga. So IR knew how to make songs sound good but ARR gives a fine polish to each and every one of his songs. IR composed music for 700 odd films. Hey Ram is his 785th film. Considering 7 songs per movie, he has tuned almost 5500 songs. Huge number indeed but hardly 5% of those songs are listenable others are 100% pure junk. But 99.9% of ARRs songs are listenable and they are also good numbers. What do you say about this?

Regards,
Anand

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: Theva (@ 209.183.134.106) on: Fri Oct 20 20:59:00 EDT 2000
  
  www.raaga.com
  
  For Zubeida!! By A. R. Rahman Forget the language barrier!!
  
  
• From: mr zamindar (@ 202.54.46.200) on: Sat Oct 21 10:37:41 EDT 2000
  
  hello
  
  
• From: Trend (@ 216.68.113.227) on: Mon Oct 23 10:30:06 EDT 2000
  
  aruLaracan,
  
  This site is meant for analyzing IR or ARR's music making abilities objectively.You don't have to do soul-opening to defend IR because it do.IR's songs have touched my soul.Likewise,ARR's song has touched my soul too.Our topic is who is better.
  
  What you said doesn't contribute anything substantial to this thread.The one song you mentioned "Sadaya mana" is enough for you.If some one says they hate this song,would you think that something is wrong with that person.
  
  By your logic in the second paragraph,if Deva has created one song that touched my soul should I think that his purpose wrt music is solved and he is GOD!!!
  
  "ir is a genius of a different kind. he showed us that the way we have divided music in to different genres is artificial and unwarranted. his unique contribution to the music world is his effortless mixing of various genres/traditions to give a music which is more than the sum of its parts."
  
  If this is a emotional outburst you don't have to substantiate it .If not you or chandru or diwakar who think your writing is arumai or absolutely brilliant respectively, substantiate it.
  
  Anyway,Arul I appreciate your ability to make atleast two people happy.
  
  Trend
  
  
• From: Trend (@ 216.68.113.227) on: Mon Oct 23 10:31:41 EDT 2000
  
  Disregard the words "because it do" in the second line.
  
  Thanks,
  Trend
  
  
• From: kiru (@ 192.138.149.4) on: Mon Oct 23 11:13:30 EDT 2000
  
  Trend,
  
  "ir is a genius of a different kind. he showed us that the way we have divided music in to different genres is artificial and unwarranted. his unique contribution to the music world is his effortless mixing of various genres/traditions to give a music which is more than the sum of its parts."
  
  the above said words of aruLaracan will be substantiated in the thread 'Anaylzing Maestro's work'. Please read the postings in the thread, where in one post I had suggested a classification for the Maestro's work. He has touched too many genres and it will be difficult to do this classification. But it is just an attempt. In this process you will see what aruLaracan said is something very obvious.
  Its my understanding that IR does not use a particular song making style. He approaches it as a mini-music composing project. He does not pick any aspect of the song first. Like he says, it just comes out of him. This should not be difficult to believe if you analyze all his songs. Atleast follow the 'Analyzing ' thread.
  Have you read rjay's dissection of 'EdhO mOgam' ??
  See how much effort he puts in a song ? Is this only to make the song a hit ? Its gotta be something more than that.
  
  
• From: Trend (@ 216.68.113.227) on: Mon Oct 23 11:53:27 EDT 2000
  
  Kiru,
  
  I'm very curious about what arul said
  "divided music in to different genres is artificial and unwarranted"
  
  As far as I know, most of the musicians agree or atleast acknowledge the fact that music can be naturally classified into different genres.Has IR at any time said that differnet genres is a artificial thing?
  
  Do you mean to say that other MDs didn't have the wisdom to think that any genre can be artificially derived from one genre?
  
  I have read through Rjay's analysis and your classification.It was interesting and educated me in spite of my weak basics.It doesn't in any way answer my question I think.If it does please point it out.
  
  "See how much effort he puts in a song ? Is this only to make the song a hit ? Its gotta be something more than that."
  
  I think you would agree with me that this was purely subjective opinion of IR fan or collective and subjective opinion of IR fans.
  
  "He has touched too many genres"
  
  I don't know maybe.In comparison,are MSV and ARR's exploration of genres limited?
  
  Trend
  
  
• From: Udhaya (@ 63.89.188.162) on: Mon Oct 23 12:14:01 EDT 2000
  
  But why is that TFM page, Udhaya and the other TFM page pisthas are keeping quiet allowing personal attacks on the Maestro
  
  Observer,
  A friend alerted me to this post of yours and made me step into this crap-hole of a thread. You are dragging my name into this stinking mess when I haven’t posted here for a very long time. This shows that you got it in for me. I will address that later after I set you straight on the many levels that you are wrong.
  
  If I were to diss someone I would definitely come up with something more stinging and original than what your measly imagination yielded—“pistha”.
  
  You seem to suffer from a misconception that the TFM page admins are a group of individuals paid full time to keep watch. That is not the case. This is a public forum that started small and was monitored by participants who frequented it. I’m one of several regulars from years ago. An outlandish remark here or a fight brewing there was so infrequent in the early days of the forum that it was easily pacified by one of us. But traffic increased and so did the entry of barbaric degenerates who mistake a public discussion forum for a fan club. From discussing music to understand it better, this forum became a gathering of like-minded individuals who rallied for or against a specific MD. Myself and many other neighborhood watchers have sworn off trying to regulate this rotting forum. I keep myself to a select few threads focused on examining music and if someone gets out of hand in one of these threads, then I speak up. To expect anyone of us to keep track of this steaming pile of manure called “IR or ARR”, shows your ignorance of our precious time. What did you expect from a thread titled as “IR or ARR? Profundity? Don’t dive into the gutter and cry that it stinks. You chose to participate in this lowly squabble, now you want others to help you out?
  
  Is it because Mr.Srikanth('fan' or ARR fan ) is writing about Raja's attitude and ego and newtfmpage admin is playing it cool?
  
  Oh, you did some investigating did you to figure out my kinship with Srikanth? Well, in your investigation did you come across the many hundreds of posts by Srikanth elucidating the beauty of many IR compositions? I bet not. Now, who suffers from selective perception, you little little man? Like his views or not, Srikanth has discussed TFM at such length, with such enthusiasm and clarity that anyone who has kept up with him knows that he only stands for original compositions and high standards and not for any individual composer. He spent his energy exposing the songs that ARR copied; did you read those posts? I have locked horns with him on several occasions on several musical issues, but have never doubted his integrity. I have publicly and privately requested him to stay away from counterproductive threads such as this. But given what he knows about music he falls easy prey to these threads and gets pulled into the fray, and that’s sad for everybody—him and the forum.
  
  You haven’t observed anything but your own need for gratification. Calling yourself Observer is more irony than I can stand. I have gone on at length to explain things for a lot of new posters and to answer your pointed questions. The next time you get all riled up, stop and ask yourself what you’re so mad about. Is it because your taste has been defiled that this became personal or is it because you can’t stand to see someone hold another point of view? And pick your enemies as you pick your friends—carefully. If you want to take me on personally, you better shore up on your armory, you will need it. You may think I’m pistha, but I won’t be licked.
  
  
• From: aruLaracan (@ 134.124.160.10) on: Mon Oct 23 12:30:43 EDT 2000
  
  Trend,
  
  please consider my previous posting (and this one too) as a digression. i am too bored to post in the DF except for an ocassional semi-technical stuff or to ask a question. i have been around for too long to take this df seriously. of course, people like rjay make it an interesting reading.
  
  none of my postings is emotional. if you want to know how ir has integrated different genres listen to his music and listen to a wide variety of other musicians. i always find it hard to categorize many of his songs. is Anandha rAgam (pannIr pushpangaL) a great attempt at wc style orchestration or is it a good simmendramadhyamam? what would you say about azhagE azhagu dhEvadhai (rAja pArvai)? is iniya malargaL malarum (pUnthOttam) good sarasangi or is it a smooth jazz? listen to the so called fusion available in the market. for example you might want to start with taj mahal, vishwa mohan bhat, ... they should be available in cincinnati. you would easily realize how these are really not fusion but playing together of different genres. listen to rAjA. you get the meaning of fusion. (please do not think i have a poor opinion of the abilities of these the poeple i have named.)
  
  btw, music need not be naturally classified in to different genres. in reality music is divided in to two groups at the very fundamental level: (1) equitempered modern western music, (2) everything else (old western, eastern, african, indian, ...). even this differentiation was brought about to make instruments like piano and guitar versatile! otherwise, the use of harmonies, the usage of specific types of harmonies (jazz, blues, classical, ...) all, at the fundamental level, are the same.
  
  if you need clear detailing please refer to sridhar seetharaman's pages on harmony/chords to start with. later you may progress to more advanced texts quite a number of which are available at b&n and borders. you can also rent leonard bernstein's famous lectures on classical music available at any public library.
  
  and finally, please don't repsond to this. i don't intend to write anymore in this thread in the near future.
  
  
• From: Trend (@ 216.68.113.227) on: Mon Oct 23 12:49:33 EDT 2000
  
  Arul,
  
  I have listened to Vishwa mohan bhatt and I understand fusion music.
  
  Anyway,thanks for giving me tips to enrich my musical knowledge.
  
  Digression,
  
  I want to ask you one thing.How did you know I was near Cincinnatti?(IP address mapping)Do you always go around poking your nose into trying to find out which place a person is coming from?
  
  This is a bad practice.I don't care where you are from or where you are writing from.But I respect your comments.
  
  Don't you think each has a right to their own privacy?If I had made any personally hurting comments then you can go about doing that.
  
  Please learn some manners.
  
  BTW, is this something that is normal over here?
  
  Trend
  
  

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