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Pronounciation in TFM songs

Topic started by muthax (@ user-38ld829.dialup.mindspring.com) on Sun Sep 13 03:45:16 EDT 1998.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Hi guys,

TFM has seen lots of singers from other languages. Some have/are
ruled/ruling the TFM for so many years. Many of these singers started
to sing in tamil without even knowing to read and write in tamil.
Still those songs have been a big hit, for the tune, lyrics and
ofcourse their talent to bring the emotion in the song. In quite a few
occasions i have noticed singers like KJY have missed some finer aspects
of singing a song - the Pronounication. Not to blame the singers
i feel the MDs of such songs shud have taken more care on the
pronounciation aspects of these singers.

In this thread i would like to mention few songs of K.J.Y where he
missed the pronounciation. This is *not to criticise* KJY or
any other singer. But just to discuss this aspect in singing a song.
I would like u all to mention other such song/singers u have come across

1. Senthazham poovil vandhadum thendral en meedhu modhudhamma
poovaasam medai podudhamma penn bolae jaadai pesudhamma

whereas it shud have been Polae

same song the line

2. Maravaen Maraven arBudha kaatchi.

where as it shud have been arPutha.

3. Ninaivaalae silai seidhu unakaaga vaithen
Therukoilae odi vaa....

whereas it shud be thru-koilae

same song
4. sendhoora bendham......

whereas it shud be sendhoora bandham

guys pour more singers and songs...

Muthax

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: SM (@ 208.236.83.26) on: Tue Feb 2 17:54:34 EST 1999
  
  
  RFP (OTBCU) (@207.43.195.202),
  
  Well, I am a Rajni fan and that doesn't mean that I have accepted the way he talks Thamizh. I could only laugh when I heard the 'azhagu' song in the super hit film "Baatsha". It has one line (Lyrics courtesy : VM),
  
  "nee paesum Thamizh azhagu"
  
  In fact, I used to laugh when he speaks dialogues like
  
  "naan oru DHADAVAE sonna nooru DHADAVAE SONNAA maadhiri"
  
  But, I take it like this. He is not speaking Thamizh. He is speaking "some" language which is like Thamizh. I like the way he carries himself and his image on the screen. But at the same time, I didn't like him singing and speaking dialogues with lot of flaws in Thamizh pronounciation. So, I think I have the rights to crib about wrong pronounciation of Thamizh.
  
  
• From: nakkeeran (@ inet-fw4-o.oracle.com) on: Tue Feb 2 18:16:18 EST 1999
  
  RFP (OTBCU):
  
  does your conclusion apply to all who saw mammooty/mohanlal movies also? how could one stand their pronunciation? if we see that way, loose mohan, janagaraj all should be accused for this, and there's no end to it.( of course, these guys didnt sing 'naan paesum thamizh azhagu!'). so... let's restrict only to songs.
  
  let me bring in another case: of TMS killing english! there's a song
  
  'raaaamoooo... I love you.....
  raaaajaaaa... I love you....'
  
  notice the way he stresses on the I. man, that was hilarious!
  
  similarly, the 'devane.. ennaip paarungal' song from gnyana oli had one line 'no peace of mind'; i cant forget how we used to laugh every christmas/good friday when DD telecasts that song!
  
  
  
  
• From: me no blacksheep (@ user-38ld8s8.dialup.mindspring.com) on: Tue Feb 2 23:39:15 EST 1999
  
  Who is black sheep???? athu yaar yaar yaar
  
  
• From: rajaG (@ ) on: Mon Aug 14 11:57:54 EDT 2000
  
  revived!
  
  Please read the old responses before you start adding to the topic.
  
  
• From: Kudarai (@ 216.190.255.35) on: Mon Aug 14 13:27:21 EDT 2000
  
  On your mark
  get set
  GO.......
  
  
• From: cram (@ 206.103.12.102) on: Tue Aug 15 05:34:10 EDT 2000
  
  konjum mainakkale ketteengala? nothing could be worse than singing "intre varaventum en teepaavali pantigai"! grrrrrr!!!!
  i think ritham also has a few tamizh rape songs
  
  
• From: Velaiyaththavan (@ 129.252.23.185) on: Tue Aug 15 12:29:03 EDT 2000
  
  cram:
  
  I know you meant to say "rap" in mallu accent :-)
  
  
• From: Bug (@ 216.71.84.142) on: Tue Aug 15 14:09:26 EDT 2000
  
  vijay,
  One thing I have understood from this whole discussion, you guys feel that you have "musically superior ears" if you listen only Beethoven, melodious songs, carnatic ragas etc. Vanthenda paalkaran and autokaran may not be a classical thyagarja keerthanai but it was good enough to attract many people in a simpler way. Why don't ARR try doing that kind of tune?
  Appadi dapankuthu tune poduvatherukkum thani thiramai vendum. Beggars playing flute or harmonium in EMU trains will definetely have good shruthi knowledge and can attract people with their music. It is not necessary that they should be a shishyan for Thyagaraja or Beethoven.
  You are simply trying to be different. That's it. I am not following the mass's opinion. I am just one among them cos I happened to have the same opinion like them. These handful of people who object are "thiruvilayaadal-Nakkeeran" kutram kandupidthu eruppargaley ozhiya will not go with the flow. What is the definition of a musically superior song?
  Being melodious? Being classical? How do you classify a song as a musically superior?
  
  "Naan seivathu sithu velai, isai enbathu oasai thaan pondra thathuvangal vittavar engu engo erukkaar. Do you think people doesn't know that isai is nothing but wind? Are the people saying that music is a solid object or what. Everyone knows that. Thevai eillaamal eppadi proverbs vittu he isolated himself from the public. How much thathuvangal you want. Maybe I can give some.
  My arguments aren't weak as you said earlier. Your's is cos you cannot digest the fact of "rhythm" skyrocketing day by day. The same song (snehidhane by sadana sargam) which you feel worse according to your musical perspicacy has been accepted good by millions of people. I am sorry to say that you are the odd man out.
  
  When I compared a song of sadana sargam with SJ or chitra it does not necessarily mean that SS is greater than SJ or chitra. When you compare 2 things it is not a necessity that one should be greater always. Still LKG logic vaithu kondu erukka mudiyaathu. 2 things can be compared to differentiate the style of rendering the song.
  HH --bhavam missing etc…..did you prove it? Summa why do you say that it is my opinion etc and reject it. the great bhavam missing HH has many great hits to credit. Vethanai thaan that musically better ears of yours is missing to identify the "good" in a song than the "bad" when it is accepted by many people.
  
  By the way, there are exceptions to you alleged "fact" that bhavam will be missed if language not known. Engirintho azhaikkum song by lata mangeshkar from the movie by the same name had enough bhavams to convey feelings of the song. If you think you will get evoked with those feelings when ONLY KP Sundrambal sings with absolute thamizh pronounciation, then God save the earth from people with similar mentality.
  
  Finally to go little bit beyond all these adding little mischief to it ;-)
  
  ARR thamizh culture seerazhikiraar, tamil film music standard going down, people who like these kindsof songs are spineless etc sollubhavargallluku….
  
  You are the guys sitting in USA and earning for your living and the first person to apply for GC and try to stay back in US. Aren't you spoiling your country/state? Most of you would have studies in IIT or Govt univesities. Govt is providing lost cost education to the students with merit so that they will serve back the country later on. Padippu mudintha kayoda didn't you stand in front of US embassy at gemini? Engay pochu unga naatru patru?
  
  We have to be proud that ARR has lifted the standards of film music that was not achieved over several years.
  
  I tried to be as polite as possible. If this posting doesn't sound so, I APOLOGIZE in advance SINCERELY. Vaarthaigalil kutram kandupidithu need not drag this discussion. I don't have any intention of hurting anyone. Just poured out my opinions. Ennakku vayasagi pochu moreover as some other Senior DF'ers said I lack spine endru (I am happy to accept that I don't have spine rather than act as if I have one like others do) so let me rest for a while. ;-)
  
  I am happy and content by staying away from false doctrines and ruts. I look at the world for its varieties, puthumai etc. If you are happy with finding faults ALONE in it. Then I am also sorry to say that our opinions are miles apart.
  
  Bug
  
  
• From: (^!^) (@ 207.43.195.202) on: Tue Aug 15 14:22:39 EDT 2000
  
  BUG: after reading your post, I feel it is not the existence of your 'spine' that is in question:-)
  
  
• From: SL (@ 198.95.226.224) on: Tue Aug 15 15:18:56 EDT 2000
  
  Velaiyaththavan,
  it was rap with a Gujarati accent :-)))
  
  
• From: fan (@ 216.190.255.35) on: Tue Aug 15 16:17:52 EDT 2000
  
  Bug sir,
  I look at the world for its varieties, puthumai etc. IMHO: best statement from you so far.
  
  Yes many are very happy finding faults they get some satisfaction. Many are not ready to welcome anything new.
  
  Just keep posting don’t be afraid to tell your opinion.
  
  Arr was taken for a ride on vande matram release many here called it as a hype, sales gimmick etc etc and few went to an extent to call it “anti national activity”. All this was after Vandematharam made a great impact not only in India, almost every place where Indian community lived in the globe.
  
  But IR was just like that pardoned for not getting out his "symphony" till now, I happened to attend all the functions in Chennai, chaired by many top musicians to honor him, but yet to hear the score. I still believe he has the capacity to do it, but to make these functions meaning full he should have released it.
  
  Now wait and see, arr and his band wagon is coming to US next month,
  There is going to be at least 1 gig of data Bashing him for anything ranging from recorded singing to non-tamil singers singing ya da ya da....
  
  Finally one person here often posts something about
  Music quality and quantity, still I don’t get this. What is the meaning of this?
  If you ask them they post a huge posting clearly bashing ARR, his fans and requesting other to be considerate,
  
  In spite of your posting being very clam and composed (at times a little long;) many are getting irritated, hey! they should apply this to above-mentioned person also.
  They don’t because you talk about ARR, the only musician in Indian film history to have taken over Film Music like a storm in the almost all the Indian languages that produces talkies. Some think he is still a failure forgetting the fact that there are millions who clearly know it is the other way.
  
  
• From: rajaG (@ 207.43.195.201) on: Tue Aug 15 17:14:49 EDT 2000
  
  Srikanth/Bug: I am addressing this to both of you though many of these are relevent to posts made by either of you.
  
  1. The poll results for "Should ARR use Hindi singers" shows about 40+% voting that he should not. First, I would have preferred the title to have been "Is good pronunciation essential for Film songs?" My guess is a response for that (saying YES) would have been overwhelming. Still if 40+% of the voters feel that ARR should NOT use Hindi singers, it atleast proves that the 'masses' do NOT unilaterally accept Hindi singers.
  
  2. SnehidhanE is a hit not because of SS, but despite her. There is no denying that ARR is the 'IN' guy now. People line up to buy his release even before they have heard it and formed an opinion. And IR is not the HOT property he once was. He has to continuosly prove himself to get even lukewarm response. Nobody can track true sales of Rhythm and Bharathi (corrected for these seasonal trends). That being so, linking the sales to "actual fan appreciation" is not valid. If you are still hell bent on it, then ARR is (based on sales) inferior to Ram Laxman, Nadeem Shravan, Ismail Durbar, etc. - Are you prepared to live with it?
  
  3. Srikanth- you have really confused me. You were among the first to criticize ARR (for not letting Sivamani and Naveen play live) and now you are doing a 180 degrees flip in pre-empting criticism for his 'non-live' live shows. What's your point anyway?
  
  4. Bug: I don't have any problem with the length of your postings. aanaa Onaai aattukkutti kadhai maadhiri, yaarum sollaadhadha sonna maadhiri ezhudhi adhukku rebuttal kodukkaradhu thappu. As I have said earlier to you (AGAIN) "nobody questioned ARR's musical qualities/achievements. only his non-emphasis on pronunciation and its consequences"
  
  5. BUG: You might not like this, but YES Music is a reasonably precise measure, but its appreciation can be subjective. Superiority is defined by the thought process and the delivery by the creator/performer NOT by how many people bought the cassettes. A person who sings ada thaaLa varNam in 4 kaalams can easily sing aNNe aNNe sippaai aNNe, but a person whose repertoire is limited to the latter CANNOT sing the former. Just like math, science, geography - that is why they give degrees and advanced degrees in music. Before you start misquoting and misrepresenting me - NO! I did not say that if you like aNNE aNNE you are inferior. But if one cannot differentiate between the thought process, delivery, etc between the two (afore-mentioned examples), and if one does not comprehend the intricacies involved then, yes, IMHO they are inferior critics.
  
  6. Srikanth - Symphony, for you, is a brahmasthra. You have used it effectively - but you can use it only once. Sorry buddy! not this time again. If your criticism is "Why should IR call himself a maestro?", then in the larger scheme of hypes in the TFM industry, this is insignificant.
  
  7. BUG: This time it is personal. I left India and am a Citizen of the U.S. for many reasons. Absence of patriotism was NOT one of them. Look at it this way - my leaving India has opened up one more job in India for lesser mortals like, and there are many of them……(although tempting, I will leave the sentence hanging)J BTW, why do you keep bringing this up - sounds like a personal problem to me.
  
  8.Bug: SS thamizhla kutram irukku nu sonna udanEy, nEra KPS kku thaan pOgaNumaa. Haven't you heard about an acceptable middle ground. Please refer to my earlier posting about 'nitpicking but acceptable' vs. 'unacceptable'.
  
  

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