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Where did Hey Ram and Sirai Chaalai' music fail in relation to the epic Lagaan

Topic started by rf (@ 172.164.126.190) on Sun Oct 21 02:08:51 EDT 2001.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Lagaan is a must see, though it did not come from Chennai, it is a must see to understand so many things about what TFM and TFilms in general have missed out in catering to a global audience. An actor who gave us Appoorva Sahotharargal with Ilayaraja Hey Ram was a big mistake and lacking in thinktank. Kamalhasan depended on Hype for that abstract storyline to sell. Sirai Chaalai was too stuffed i believe with elements that it lacked proper perspective and its songs were just ordinary attempts. A period film should have the type of music ARR created for Lagaan. Amazing stuff! (IMHO, Lagaan has become my favorite film in all aspects (screenplay, acting, story, casting and the bgm and songs)while Apoorva Sahotharargal is my second favorite...) I am saying that IR should come out of his mould and look at a world audience in taking up assignments like period films and be open to suggestions/criticisms/information and keep eyes and ears to the ground. IMHO, directors prpoducers are shunning him because audience has changed but IR cares only for Mozart and Bach and not for contemporary ideas. Lagaan is a good lesson for how Marudanayagam's music should be composed. I know HCIRF cannot accept this, it will take time as it took me (SuperFanofIR) to learn.

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: a (@ 12.78.127.178) on: Tue Oct 23 16:19:58 EDT 2001
  
  "nee partha paarvayin" in Hey Ram is a Master Piece in Orchestration. Please buy a good stereo set and hear this song when you are alone with breezy wind blowing on your face....the way he mixed piano and flute is impeccable
  
  
• From: a (@ 12.78.127.178) on: Tue Oct 23 16:25:24 EDT 2001
  
  South Indian Viewers has better sense than North Indian Viewers. South Indians look for "Reality"
  while the North Indians dreams in "Dreamy world". Lagaan is a cool movie becoz of it's fantastic screenplay. There is nothing special in BGM....
  
  
• From: Bharath (@ 192.25.158.12) on: Tue Oct 23 17:14:25 EDT 2001
  
  I have been thinking about period films
  
  ARR:
  1) 1947 earth
  2) zubeidaa
  3) Lagaan
  
  IR:
  1) Hey! Ram
  2) Bharathi
  3) siraichaalai!
  
  in terms of bgm 1947 has the potential to slug it out with any of IR's pieces.(although siraichaalai is really good) my ranking wud be
  
  1) sirachaalai
  2) 1947
  3) Hey ram
  
  in terms of just songs alone...my ranking wud be
  
  1) 1947
  2) zubeida
  3) Bharathi
  
  In terms of multlingual viability..where bharathi is not in the picture... none of IR's stuff is in the running!
  
  I mean... dont harp on the fact that IR brilliant MD! or that a select elite approve of IR's work. why doesnt IR appeal to the north?
  
  He knew it right! when the work started that it was goin to be a multi lingual movie? so why didnt it do well!
  
  How long can you blame movie failiure as a reason! Whats IR's role in Hey Ram and siraichaalai not doing well in Hindi(it was made a full fledged hindi movie simultaneously)? i want an answer to this question?
  
  
• From: Why? (@ 206.175.176.2) on: Tue Oct 23 19:18:58 EDT 2001
  
  Why does not Beethoven appeal in Gummidipundi or Sachin Dev Burman in Berlin? Why did Iruvar, in spite of a storyline involving Puratchi Thalaivar not do well? What was ARR's role in ensuring that the movie did not succeed? I want an answer to this question.
  
  
• From: rf (@ 64.12.106.46) on: Wed Oct 24 01:06:24 EDT 2001
  
  Thanks a lot - kiru and Bharath - prompted me to get back to clarify my views. Bharath got the complete spirit and substance of this thread. Kiru also appreciated most of it. See, whatever happens in the music world for the next few centuries, i don't think we can have another IR and I am a IR super fan and an understanding critic. My argument is: IR has given us enough to enjoy for more than one lifetime. (It was just too many things happenin and i am taking some of IR's misses as a personal defeat and expressed something in raajangahm out of too much involvement in IR's music and analysis and so on, and also the birth of this thread.) As Bharath pointed out, time to detach. but, before that i wish to clarify what i tried to say: ARR is a thorough professional, why? he has researched enough of various contemporary musical idioms and continues to research fresh ideas to 'deliver' music liked by the audience. He has an interest in reaching out to a very wide audience, not just Tamizh, not just in south India, but north India as well and not just there, but the whole fricking world. how does he do that? Researches current music trends and sounds, understands various audiences and finds out what his directors/producers want- best example is Subash Ghai sitting with Rahman for 60 days and also changing R' music to Ghao' liking for Taal). He pleases everybody and has the 'information' to do so. R said once he wants to please the audience. He found a common musical idiom that cuts across all boundaries and iit is evident in his music. anyone all over the world can equally enjoy his music just as a tamilian or Hindi guy does ( best eg is Thiruda, Thiruda, Minsara Kanavu) Is it possible with IR's songs? A north Indian cannot appreciate IR's hindi songs themselves? Why? Because IR did not understand the demands of the audience. Dismissing them as people that don't have musical values is too arrogant on our part in south India. ARR said, northies like simpler music. You know, trying to be simple is the most difficult thing!!!! And being effective in that simplicity, how the hell do you achieve that? all the knowledge is not going to help if we can't deliver what the audience wants or the director/producer wants. We can't always assume that the MD can change the audience director producer all the time. That is stupid. I have heard that IR has been at loggerheads with many film personalities in Chennai, that means IR is giving up on opportunities to be dynamic which with ARR's arrival that feature of IR stood out. (Do you think because IR did not take Mani Rahtnam's, Bharathi raaja's demands that he broke up) Later IR did change his musical style a little bit, bringing more well developed, stronger and longer pallavi's (Thudarum, MVirumbuthey Unnai, Kaathuluku Mriyathai, Bharathi and many more...)in relation to what ARR was coming out with. But, this topic is all about why IR did not adapt a different idiom for period films like Sira Chaalia and Hey Raam meant for international audiences and had international actors. Exactly as Bharath ranked and laid out, that ishow i felt about the songs of Hey Ram and Sira Chaalai. Look at ARR' effective use of songs in Lagaan. He did not really make it feel like the usual songs, with a short pallavi, massive interlude, some out of the world (but breaking the continuity of a good song or ballad that tells a story) charanam and then annu pallavi to reunite with the pallavi. i think period movies are serious films requiring different treatment of the song structures. I was disappointed with sirai chaalai songs. We all know IR can only super excel in the BGM, but Hey Ram, Lajja there was not much BGM heard in the movies despite the super efforts of IR, So, only the songs could have been more effective. I honestly feel that if IR is going to give out similar traditional song structures for the upcoming Marudanayagam and "Beyond the Soul" it could only mean that IR is still unaware of the audience or does not care for the audience (these are aimed at international audiences) or has sycophant producers/directors who are afraid to suggest/compel any fresh ideas to IR or usually IR is just fulfilling a need for association of some sycophant movie makers! (By the way, Beyond the Soul is from Rajeev Anchal of Guru fame!) Basically, I don't want stupid traditional songs which ARR has rendered out of fashion, I think IR should let the story be said in a flowing manner in the songs that means more effective songstructure. What is that the Maestro cannot do? Only, the director/producer should challenge the Maestro and not be afraid to ask of him what is required to get the audience' happy, not what is easy for the Maestro to do the most difficult compositions that pleases the few elite music lovers and himself. This is IMHO only.
  
  
• From: Kupps (@ 156.153.255.126) on: Wed Oct 24 03:52:48 EDT 2001
  
  Bharath,
  
  can you explain me what you mean by multlingual viability?
  
  Because, of all the movies you listed non of ARR movies is a multilingual movie. Only Hey!Ram and Siraichaalai are multi-lingual and both are box office failures.
  
  Here, Multi-lingual "degenerates" to the definition "native people(like thamizhs, hindis, malayalees, bengalis, marathis etc) tend to see that movie as their language movie". So, does the trend in India say "multi-lingual movies are failures"? IMHO Dilse is a "kind of" multi-lingual movie in which ARR worked. Zubeidha, 1947-Earth were all pure Hindi movies and their success in non-hindi belt is because they saw and appreciated them as Hindi movies. Whereas in the case of Hey!Ram/Siraichchaalai a thamizhian wanted it to be more thamizh and a hindiwala more hindi and there comes the shortfall of expectation and hence the failure.
  
  In general if a film succeeds in box-office it would inspire more people to listen or seek for the music.
  
  IMHO going to the current trend of support to multi-lingual movies if ARR works in a multi-lingual movie then:
  
  1) The songs will be hit during the pre-film audio release.
  2) The film is most likely to be a failure.
  3) Not much people will be more inspired to seek for that movie's song.
  
  
• From: Rajesh (@ 203.126.40.254) on: Wed Oct 24 04:32:35 EDT 2001
  
  I think much has got to do with the publicity. Tell me what publicity Sazaa-e-kaalapani (Hindi name for Siraichalai) Hey Ram got in Hindi. Nothing as compared to Lagaan. Even Lajja which has excellent BGM composed by IR - his name was omitted from any of the promos. His only song, which was the best in the film, was never aired. And look at Gadar - in spite of being such a mediocre film, it is the publicity that got them into place. So I think it is the way you market your product that makes you a winner or a loser
  
  
• From: Sridhar (@ 203.199.205.25) on: Wed Oct 24 04:32:56 EDT 2001
  
  
  
  1. If ARR is said to be a national (sometimes, International!!!) music director, how come he was forced to compose specifically for the Hindi
  remake of Mudalvan? The song "Mudhalvane vane vane vane vane vane " is not there in hindi version, i heard. it is such a simple situation that a tune for that scenario should have been composed with national appeal. given the fact ARR is already an International MD and that every indian is looking forward to his music , irresprective of his mother tongue he could have composed a "national tune."
  
  That the hindi tune was different is because ARR's original tune lacked quality?
  
  
  OTHER DIGRESSIONS:
  
  2. "Raja Hindustani" composed by ARR was a run away hit when the likes of "Sapney" or"Bomaby" were going around.Did the exit of Nadheem Shravan from Hindi music a major factor for the ascent of ARR in north India.(ie more because of less competion than because of quality")
  
  3. How come no director does more than 2 , max 3 films with ARR ? Ghai did just one. Kamal did three, in between switched over to deva, now has gone to Shankar Mahadevan. (exception:shankar)
  
  4. Will the song "Narumugaie" of IRUVAR or "Mazai thuli" of Sangamam will have international appeals if dubbed in to other langauges?
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
• From: suresh (@ 202.88.155.34) on: Wed Oct 24 05:13:12 EDT 2001
  
  Bharath
  
  Are you serious! Did anyone really think that a Mohanlal starrer would be a serious contender in the NOrth? Not Priyadarshan, not Mohanlal himself! Siraichalai was primarily made for the South, a product extension to the Hindi market was just a cover-the-costs exercise. Did you see the movie? Was there even a hint of pan-Indian appeal to it to justify a score that would appeal to the North?
  
  It should be clear to even the ignorant that in terms of marquee viability and in terms of their promotion (in the media), Siraichaalai was a no-runner in the North compared to
  
  1 Zubeidaa - Shyam Benegal, Karishma, Manoj Bajpai
  2 1947 Earth - Deepa Mehta, Aamir Khan,
  3 Lagaan - Aamir
  
  Yet, Zubeidaa and 1947 set the box office on fire, didn't they? To use your argument "Whats IR's role in Hey Ram and siraichaalai not doing well in Hindi", well then, what's ARRs role in Zubeidaa, 1947, Takshak, and Iruvar, each of which was promoted by mega names, in not doing well in ANY LANGUAGE?
  
  What are we harping about? Must IR have thought of the minority North audience who would watch it and compose music that encompasses their taste, or should he have done justice to the real context of the storyline - rooted so strongly in the South. Siraichaalai was an out and out South film, its Hindi version was only incidental. With Hey Raam, as is well aware, IR composed for set situations that were already shot. Didn't have much leeway to try the exotic, did he?
  
  I hope you guys didn't expect Bharathi to break into a ghazal or qawwali-tinged "Nirpadhuve" just to satisfy your multi-lingual/ global appeal, or whatever that signifies.
  
  Lagaan was a superhit, all congrats to ARR. But if pure commercial success (or NRI appeal that you guys seem to be obsessed with) is the criteria, then IR has to reinvent himself everytime a 'Maine Pyar Kiya', a 'KKHH', a 'DDLJ', or whatever breaks out from Bollywood. Now that SAR did so well here in 'Vaaname Ellai' and 'Anandham', would you demand ARR to come out with simple, basic tunes in keeping with what the mass market demands?
  
  
  
  
  

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