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IR-ARR usage of instruments

Topic started by cram (@ 206.103.12.102) on Sat Apr 15 02:38:14 EDT 2000.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

get ready for another round, guys (timepass panna venaam:-))]. no IR or ARR bashing, please, muthallaye sollitten. let's just discuss how each of them has used various instruments. for instance, IR's use of acoustic guitar is unparalleled, while ARR rarely uses it. similarly, IR `pales' before ARR when it comes to electric guitar or keyboards (strictly IMHO, everyone's welcome to disagree). start shooting.

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: sabesan (@ ws-209-233-228-117.webvangroup.com) on: Wed Apr 26 17:09:29 EDT 2000
  
  arul, does the song in Priya - 'Hey paadal ondru, raagam ondru', fall into the same category? there will be a violin piece along with SJ's voice in the songs paragraphs (what do u call that).....
  
  
• From: srikanth (@ host2.cvs.aa.net) on: Wed Apr 26 17:10:08 EDT 2000
  
  arul this is very old tech,
  raja might have adopted it from our mds like GR, if you listen to the old songs the vilon follows the song
  This was a due the fact light music came from carnatic music, hence our old mds adopted the same pattern, violin following the lead,
  
  msv was the first to remove this trend,
  
  raja might have experimented it, but after 1981 there were not many songs like that.
  
  Ravi, I am trying to prove idle brain is not devils work shop :)))
  
  
• From: aruLaracan (@ psiphi.umsl.edu) on: Wed Apr 26 17:16:53 EDT 2000
  
  srikanth,
  
  please tell me some songs from gr, msv, ... what i am talking is they violin stops playing after the first two or three bars. i would like to know songs of gr, msv, ... in the same way (stopping after just a few bars). this is very much unlike complete tagging along a la kaNNE kalaimAnE.
  
  sabesan,
  
  yes. he does it in that song too.
  
  
• From: Srinath (@ 205.252.37.3) on: Wed Apr 26 17:20:22 EDT 2000
  
  Srikanth:
  There is a solo violin following the lead throughout in Kanne Kalaimaane !
  
  
• From: Sridhar Seetharaman (@ 85.mercerville-15-20rs.nj.dial-access.att.net) on: Wed Apr 26 17:36:58 EDT 2000
  
  Solo violin in Kanne Kalaimaane is intentional. In other songs, the song is recorded with violin as a lead instrument if the singers could not meet with the recording schedule. Due to poor recording facilities, I have heard the the solo violin in 40% of raja's music. This is supposed to be replaced with human voice. You can hear this even in a song like "Ilamai Idho" from Sakalakalaavallavan. In many of the songs, I have heard the metronome in silent parts or phrases with solo instruments.
  
  
  
  
  
• From: Sridhar Seetharaman (@ 85.mercerville-15-20rs.nj.dial-access.att.net) on: Wed Apr 26 17:38:25 EDT 2000
  
  Brilliant analysis by RJAY and Srikanth. I wish I could spend more time hre.
  
  
  
  
• From: aruLaracan (@ psiphi.umsl.edu) on: Wed Apr 26 17:43:30 EDT 2000
  
  sridhar,
  
  that's what i thot, but wasn't sure if it was the case, but still ...
  
  let's continue with good stuff :-)
  
  (btw, can someone please mail me a "complete" definition of hindhOLam? thanks)
  
  
• From: srikanth (@ host2.cvs.aa.net) on: Wed Apr 26 17:54:44 EDT 2000
  
  Sridhar,
  yes, that might be the reason, there were not many track facities like today.
  
  arul, off hand, i could remember now vasantha mullai pole.., a huge chunk of MKT songs have got violin following the melody
  
  Msv removed this trend, he converted film music to light music, before then it was more classical at most semi-classical oriented. Every song was based on a raga, but msv's slowly gave western style of music of scales etc, he also blended carnatic and light music very well.
  
  Many musical parts are often unheard, needs a very sharp (or jvc, sony:)) ears to get those things out. Listen to old songs channel in my site i have remastered the old songs, you will hear more new sounds, even bass parts can be heard.
  
  (srinath use to pull my leg that I have added bass to these songs, if i could be so good I would in been in some studio recording now :)))
  
  
• From: Naveen (@ pppa52-resaledavenport1-3r7231.saturn.bbn.com) on: Wed Apr 26 18:07:57 EDT 2000
  
  RJay.. I'm back. I'm curious to know what instrument ARR used in 'Adhisayam Song' (Jeans)
  in between 'Adhisayame asandhu pogum nee endhan adhisayam' and 'Kal thondri man thondri' (Last 2 bars) It sounds like phoo..oooo..oOOOOOOO..OOOOOOO..... I tried pan flute & bottle blow. nothing worked out. Is it ARRs user defined tone!! ? Sridhar, Srikanth, Ravi... any idea? I love that sound.
  
  
• From: kiru (@ surf0004.sybase.com) on: Wed Apr 26 22:00:30 EDT 2000
  
  RJAY and Srikanth,
  This is terrific. Very educational !!! I was on vacation that is why I could not read the thread ..not because I had work :)
  RJAY, I like your 'concepts' of 'fine-grained fusion' and 'unified musical vision' for rAja's style of music. I would also like to add one more adjective that it is 'grand fusion'. I dont think I have heard anybody do a fusion which uses all the known WCM techniques or other musical genres.Very ambitious. The guy has too much confidence in his skills . Amazing !!!.
  Regarding other examples of fusion, the CD which I use as an example of good recording, 'A meeting by the river' by VMBhatt and Ry Cooder is a very good example. You cannot tell (I mean ..I ) which is the Indian melody which is Western.
  I have the same opinion as Srikanth that rAja cares more about the notes than the sound of it. For a guy, who is made of the stuff he is made, I would say, 'just keep writing dude , we'll take care of the rest'.
  BTW, Anjali is one of the nicest recorded tamil albums. No brightness, crystal clear drum sound and good high-freq detail.
  
  
• From: rjay (@ dytnb207-12.splitrock.net) on: Thu Apr 27 01:37:28 EDT 2000
  
  I would differ in one point of view.
  I believe that many musicians get a glimpse of
  that unified musical vision, even though
  briefly. In fact any one who has devoted his
  soul to music (not a mumbo jumbo word, I just
  mean, time and effort and priority and emotions)
  gets this vision as he gets old and mature.
  
  Lots of Carnatic and hindustani composers have this musical
  vision. As I listen to Peter Gabriel, his
  integration of world music and his western
  origins is amazing. Listen to the track
  'Disturbed' from Passion (Christ) album.
  Man, it is pure Kalyani with Jungle rhythms and
  ambient textures. I am so surprised he has
  maintained the mood of kalyani. It surprised
  me doubly because a few weeks ago I started
  a theme called 'Jungle Kalyani' along similar
  lines, and left it half way.
  (And in Peter Gabriel we see inspirations
  for Rahman)
  
  That aside,
  what sets Raja and Thyagaraja apart is that their
  musical vision ranges farther and farther
  (they are able to integrate far more variety
  of ideas) and is visible almost consistently.
  I sometimes think that they know the
  stuff music is made of and they know that they
  know, (Kiru's 'confidence' element). Their
  music just flows.
  
  Until then, music has to be carefully
  crafted. I think that until this vision emerges, musicians at best
  are clever and skillful and try to amaze
  with their newfound knowledge.
  
  Ilayaraja's
  use of WCM before the Poongathavae point can
  be seen as this overenthu (My opinion!). I
  am not seeing they are not good, but the
  parts stand a little aloof - as in
  Manjal nilaavukku.
  
  ***
  
  Ravishankar's 'Profile of a genius' album,
  and his colloboration with Philip Glass
  (listen to the track Sadhanipa) are good
  examples of natural fusion. Sadhanipa starts
  with the trumpet playing the four notes,
  saa-dhaaaaaaa, neeee-pa and the theme is
  improvised in sitar and pizzicato and so on.
  
  Lalgudi's fusion album is Thillana, Marga
  released a milestone version in 1996. The
  original release was in 1975 or so,and he
  integrates hindustani, carnatic and jazz
  drums and pop orchestra so neatly!
  
  Vijayaraghav rao's 'moods' is also a great
  album. He has used at least 450-500 indian
  instruments for that album besides
  electric organ and vibraphone. I bought the
  casette in 1990 and listened to it and
  nothing but that for an year and gifted it to
  a friend. I am searching for that friend!
  
  **
  
  First I am surprised by Arul's question and
  then amazed by Sridhar's neat interpretation (which
  sounds very likely, and I used to wonder
  about Ilamai idho. If I remember right, the
  minus-one (vocalless) track of that song
  was also released) and Srikanth's
  amazing hyperlinks to music past and present!
  This thread is really becoming a synergy.
  
  Naveen, let me listen to Adhisayam.
  
  
  
• From: rjay (@ dytnb207-12.splitrock.net) on: Thu Apr 27 01:47:16 EDT 2000
  
  Srinath, pg,
  Thanks for the nice words about Poongathavae
  description. I owe a lot of my understanding
  of that song to Pal and Rajaraman's
  discussion of that song in early TFM days
  (Song of the month). I guess it must be in the
  archives.
  
  rjay
  
  
• From: rjay (@ dytnb207-12.splitrock.net) on: Thu Apr 27 01:56:28 EDT 2000
  
  Anjali was really a breakthrough for Raja.
  Suddenly he made so many innovations in
  melody, phrasing (mottai maadi, mottai maadi, for example), rhythm, harmony, voice choice, getting
  real kids to sing (instead of SJ), sound
  ambience and so on. That was an album that
  showed yet another face of Raja. Something in 'Vaanam namakku veedu' made me (makes me?) cry.
  
  
  
• From: cram (@ 206.103.12.102) on: Thu Apr 27 06:05:13 EDT 2000
  
  guys,
  you must have noticed that in many IR songs, a totally unexpected instrumental sound enters the picture, taking the song along a different path and then bring it back on track. for instance, in Kanmaniye kaadal enbadhu, you have this nadaswaram-thavil combo suddenly making an arrival, though brief, and then retreating to make way SJ's "laaala laalala lala". Similarly, in Thenral ennai muththamittadhu from Oru Odai Nadhiyagiradhu, a buggy rhythm introduces a faster pace and then the song is back at its original tempo.
  ARR has done this pretty well in Veerapandi Kottaiyile. Have you noticed it any other song of his? He's used human voice to such effect in Kokku saiva kokku [yelakati yelakati yelakati yelakati thakita thauthau] and Poo Pookkum Osai [hilkoray hilkoray hilkoray hilkoray bangalare bangalare chori chori payya - ennappa idhu:-)))]
  
  
• From: Sridhar Seetharaman (@ 45.newark-28-29rs.nj.dial-access.att.net) on: Thu Apr 27 08:12:19 EDT 2000
  
  Rjay wrote:
  
  > It surprised me doubly because a few weeks ago > I started a theme called 'Jungle Kalyani' along > similar lines, and left it half way. (And in
  > Peter Gabriel we see inspirations
  > for Rahman)
  
  Well. the next piece following "Disturbed", "It is accomplished" continues the mood. Brilliant fusion album and a must for fusion lovers.
  
  The first piece in this album, "The feeling begins", has been adapted (chord progression, the drone and the rhythm) by Rahman for the song "Anbae ennai kollathae" from Jeans. Ten seconds into this piece, you will realize this. A minute into the composition, you will hear "Anbae" without your knowledge, even though it is not played. The melody in the piece, "The feeling begins", is credited as an armenian melody, "The wind subsides". I believe that Rahman let the music play and composed a tune on top of it.
  
  Rjay, much as you did for one of your songs. In your case, it was your own progression though.
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 129.252.22.221) on: Thu Apr 27 11:23:22 EDT 2000
  
  rjay,
  u are bingo on 'vaanam namakku veedhi'. it is raja's trademark that even in happy songs sometimes u find a touch of pathos. there are many examples of this. in 'vaanam namakku' there is a beautiful flute/guitar piece that comes in both the interludes. in the second interlude, they show shamilee crawling slowly while the flute piece is on and u know why raja inserted that piece. it fits in so well with the song. and then notice how quickly he changes the tempo and brings the song right back on track.
  
  other 'happy' songs with a touch of pathos:
  
  1. the starting humming of 'minminikku' by SJ in sigappu rojaakal. try playing that piece slowly ina violin, u'll end up with a melancholic piece.
  
  2. maargazhi maasam - vietnam colony - beautiful song overlooked.(suresh's site). right after the pallavi, u'll hear a 'soga' piece and the song definitely has a tinge of pathos in it.
  
  3. and other songs where the same tune has been used for both happy and pathos versions. 'vellai pura ondru' and 'oru raagam paada nooru kaathil'. both song by KJY. notice the same tune has ben used but just the way KJY sings brings out the melancholic feeling in the pathos versions.
  
  

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