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Raga of song please

Topic started by Gopal Prasad (@ greed.cs.umass.edu) on Sat May 17 07:42:45 EDT 1997.
All times in EDT +9:30 for IST.

The popular notation used on this page. The twelve notes of an octave are the following.

1   2   3   4   5   6   7  8   9  10  11  12
S  R1  R2  R3  G3  M1  M2  P  D1  D2  D3  N3
       G1  G2                     N1  N2

Download/Upload raga based songs.

"Raga based film songs" Database | Old Database | Indian Classical Music Forum | Hindi Raaga of Songs Thread

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: vijay (@ 68.51.203.216) on: Mon May 13 02:23:57 EDT 2002
  
  satsona, "adhikaalai nerame" could be close to Gowri Manohari, based on pallavi alone.
  
  
• From: Kupps (@ 156.153.255.126) on: Mon May 13 02:59:38 EDT 2002
  
  MS, IR, Sindhuja naan kaettu ROS SOS difference paththi post paNNanvaeillayae? if u feel this is not the right place atleast send me an email.
  
  
• From: Sindhuja (@ 203.197.182.156) on: Mon May 13 03:38:59 EDT 2002
  
  Kupps,frankly,me too dunno abt. SOS.
  Vijay,that's exactly what IR had told me long back ,but i'm not that convinced abt. it,coz what abt. songs which do not use "shruthi-revealing instruments"?!
  And,MS,Andhi mazhai by no means can be PanthuvarAli,coz it is a shruthi bhedam of Vasantha!i.e,it must have the same no. of swarams as Vasantha has(which PanthuvarALi does not,coz it's a Melam and Vasantha is not)!So Ramani is defined by:
  Sa Ga3 Ma2 Pa Ni3 Sa
  Sa Ni3 Dha1 Pa Ma2 Ga3 Sa
  If u take it as
  Pa Ni Sa Ga Ma Pa,Pa Ma Ga Sa Ni Da Pa,i.e fix the Pa of Vasantha as Sa then it wud be
  Sa Ga Ma Pa Ni Sa,Sa Ni Da Pa Ma Ga Sa-which is Ramani,and which is similar to PanthuvarALi.
  (equivalent to sa ri ga pa dha sa = mohanam
  
  ga pa dha sa ri ga = sa ga ma dha ni sa = hindholam as trasnposed mohanam. ,from u'r posting)
  Even Kannaamoochi-a lot of people kept telling me that it is Naattaikurunji,I used to feel that there was something "naattaikurunji" abt. that song,but since I percieved the starting swarams as Kanna-moochi-yenada:Pa Ma Ga Sa Da Sa Sa,I felt it was not naattaikurunji.
  It was then that i realised that if I took it as:Sa Ni Da Ma Ri Ma Ma-then it is naattaikurunji perfectly!
  
  
• From: Sindhuja (@ 203.197.182.156) on: Mon May 13 03:41:08 EDT 2002
  
  OOps!That seems to be messily written!MS,I hope u got what I'm trying to say-I meant that Ramani is the shruthibhedam of Vasantha and not PanthuvarALi.
  
  
• From: MS (@ 129.252.25.241) on: Mon May 13 04:13:49 EDT 2002
  
  Sindhuja - total a confuse paNNiteenga :-)
  
  Anyway I understand ramani <---->vasantha. But what u have missed is the R1 of panthuvaraaLi which DOES find a place in the song.
  
  Andhi mazai, pozigiradhu
  
  sa sa sa , ni sa ga sa ni
  
  Ovvoru, thuLiyilum, un mugam, therigiradhu
  
  ni sa ga sa, ni ni ri, sa sa sa, sani dhapa pa..
  
  indhiran, thOttaththu, mundhiriye..
  
  pa ma ga ma, pa pani, sani dha dha pa
  
  manmadha, naattukku, mandhiriye..
  
  pa ma ga ma, pa pani, sani dha dha pa-sa
  
  
  the aalaap... There is explicit Ri1 towards the end of the aalaap.
  
  dhE, gam, yaavum
  ni sa ga sa,ni sa ga sa, ni-saa(with a ri1 asaivu),
  
  thee, yil vaadum
  
  ni sa ga sa, ni sa pa ma ga ga..
  
  and throught out the song.. in many places the R1 asaivu is there..I woudl rather give it to panthuvaraaLi than to ramani (which I dont know ). But if that R1 asaivu is ok in ramani - fine..with me..:-)
  
  Ok..Compare this song with ninnai charaNadaindhen..kaNNamaa from bharathi. U will find a distinct remblance emerging up.
  
  Kupps:
  
  Your qn on neelaambari: If neelaambari cannot lull me I would call it padayappa rather :-)
  
  
• From: Sindhuja (@ 203.197.186.28) on: Mon May 13 06:38:52 EDT 2002
  
  MS,oh,yes,yes,even I HAVE noticed the R1-I feel it was not "intended" though!Cud call it "adultrated" Ramani/Vasantha.(If it is Vasantha,then M2 wud take the place of R1 in Ramani,wudn't it?)
  IR,y don't u please come?R u looking at our confusion and silently laughing away????Neenga daan enakku Ramani rAgam sollikuduttade-ippo silent-a irunda eppadi?This is not fair!:-)
  
  
• From: Kupps (@ 156.153.255.126) on: Mon May 13 06:41:46 EDT 2002
  
  nice one MS :-)
  
  
• From: Sundar Atre (@ ) on: Mon May 13 11:34:26 EDT 2002
  
  It is interesting comparing MS's notes on Andhi Mazhai with Chidam's:
  Andhi mazhai pozhigiradhu
  gm m m m g m d m g
  
  Ovvoru thuliyilum un mugam therigiradhu
  gmd m g g g d m m g r r r s s
  
  Indiran thOttathu mundhiriye
  sd.d.n. s s m g r s s
  
  Manmadha naattukku mandhiriye
  sd.d.n. s s m g r s s
  
  
  
• From: Sundar Atre (@ 130.203.216.54) on: Mon May 13 11:38:47 EDT 2002
  
  btw, r=r1, g=g3, m=m1, d=d2, n=n3 for this song
  
  
• From: IR (@ 4.64.202.214) on: Mon May 13 12:47:25 EDT 2002
  
  ippo - what is the confusion :-)
  
  keLvi kettavangaLe badhilum sollittu (Sindhuja :-)) - apprum enna confusion :-) I am not sure what to respond to now :-) Andhi mazhai song paavam vaai irundha azhum :-) Somehow I feel andha song has a very "strong" vasantha feel. We can argue for hours together on what the intended raga is - but I dont think anybody can prove it unless the MD himself speaks up! :-) The reason being there is no instrument that keeps "sruthi" for the song unlike in a carnatic music concert where the thambura is always tuned to the sruthi and gives out the sa pa sa notes. This is exactly why we go with the percussion instruments.
  
  Interestingly enough, there was a seminar on Hindustani Music over the weekend. The presenter was very good and one interesting topic of discussion was the origin of "mishra" ragas. I would like to share this information here because it might be relevant to the topic that is being discussed. He said that most hindhustani musicians are wedded to their harmoniums and when they try playing ragas on the harmonium or a key board, they try to venture out a little bit, playing the keys next to some notes to see if that creates a "drama" (this is the word he used!). He gave several examples and one included our shivaranjani - he said mishra shivaranjani is one such raga that was created to add intensity to the already somber mood of shivaranjani . All mishra ragas in general mean that the root ragas take foreign notes based on the mood the performer intended to invoke! He played an awesome Gulam Ali clip in which the artist’s dexterous fingers on the harmonium led his voice and karpanai. It was impossible to find out the raga he was singing in although the Ghazal started off in a “RevGupthi” like raga. He ventured into several notes on the harmonium and the end result was a fantastic melody which could not be tied to “a” particular raga.
  
  I would extend this theory to film songs. Most MD’s seem to use the keyboard to compose and I feel they may have a base raga in mind and start adding color to the song/raga based on where their fingers lead them on the keyboard and finally may even lose the original raga!
  
  And with songs like Andhi Mazhai, the MD would have probably composed it in Vasantha and since the madhyama note is a dominant note in Vasantha, it leads the listeners to place the “sa” conveniently on that note and come up with a parallel raga. Usually the dominant notes in a raga (for example, Sa, Ga3, Ma1, Pa etc) lead to this confusion. Placing the Shatjam in any of these notes would yield another raga and since we do not have a clear indication of the base sruthi, everybody is correct as long as they stick to the shatjam that they perceived and play the notes of the raga they perceived accordingly. For example, a film song composed in mohanam, perceived to be in hindholam, played in both ragas simultaneouly in 2 different instruments, would sound exactly the same to a lay man as long as the first instrument plays mohanam notes for the song from the base shatjam note and the second instrument, tuned to the Gandharam note of the first instrument (which would be the shatjam of this instrument) plays (the perceived) hindhoLam notes for the song. This is possible in film songs because raga chayas and sancharas do not matter a whole lot and they go more with flow and melody. If somebody tried this for a carnatic song – it would sound horrible ? :-)
  
  MS is absolutely correct - <>
  
  I think we also get confused when we do not find typical raga phrases in songs claimed to be composed in those ragas. If Srikanth reads this he would say, stop looking at film songs from the raga perspective. :-) An example from the recent songs - would be "Anbe Sugama" from Paarthaale Paravasam - the song is supposed to be in Sahana - since the song itself does not bring out some of the classic sahana sancharas, it is very difficult to grasp the ragam right away and infact it sounds a lot like dwijavanthi - but the tail piece has wonderful sahana pudis. I believe the MD would have paid more attention to make sure that the melodic content is intact even though the “grammar” of sahana is compromised. He is free to do this in light numbers and we cannot blame him either :-) It is probably our fault to look at all songs from the "raga" angle !!
  
  Happada, super aa aruththu thaLLiyaachchu :-)
  
  
  
• From: IR (@ 4.64.202.214) on: Mon May 13 12:48:40 EDT 2002
  
  it should read:
  
  MS is absolutely correct - Now if a singer keeps on singing the "ga pa dha sa ri ga" over and over in a mohanam song, it does not "automatically become" hindholam. I think the microtones or the gamakap parayogams are the ones which determine the feel of the raga. Hence a raga's "Sa" will have to be fixed intuitively mostly. But there are composers who beat our intuitions to a great level that we will hardly be able to "fix" the Sa for a particular song.
  
  
• From: Ram (@ 63.161.25.208) on: Mon May 13 13:27:21 EDT 2002
  
  Neenga ellarum doubta kaettu thaLLum bothu....kelvi kaetpatharkenRE avathaaram edutha naan kaetkaama iruntha ippadi...MS neenga unga posting la verum notes mattum doesn't decide a raga...athoda emotionum(bhavam) match aaganum nu solli irukeenga....Is that the reason purists dont accept Kunnakudi....b'cos he is also playing the Same kalyani but since it doesn't evoke the emotions which were evoked in the past the purists call it wrong?.....am i posting some sense here or is my post crap?
  
  

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