Topic started by Bhagavathar (@ 209.43.73.97) on Sun Oct 29 01:31:55 EDT 2000.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.
A great music director should be known for his/her trick on all trades when it comes to music. But AR Rahman is good only in recording crystal clear music. As far other areas are concerned he had failed miserably. Listen to all his village oriented songs same type of digital music. Even Deva and SAR do better job than him. What about BGM he plays the songs repeatedly. Deva does a better job atleast copying from Titanic or BraveHeart. What happened to songs based out of Raagas there also he lacks knowledge. What about his singing style man. Drs recommend his "Vandemataram" to clear Constibation than bringing out patriotism.
Discuss this fake, self promoting and copying star and remove his masquerade.
Responses:
- Old responses
- From: name supplied on request (@ 193.113.185.164)
on: Mon Nov 6 17:42:32 EST 2000
Arr cannot compose classical or folk music-so kali muthi poiduthu!it is not worth discussing about.
He cannot compose BGM's-so it is not discussing about.
Subbudu said kedharathukku vandha sedharam-so he's trash who,according to some posting,history.and Trend is calling udhaya for support for the above statements.
Udhaya ,whose postings reek of arrogance,
and mischief.ARR's fans are now wearing blinkers-Kudhiraikku potta kadivalam-and they are blessed with tunnel vision which lets them see only forwards.kali muthiduthu!
- From: Wrap it !.... (@ 216.190.255.35)
on: Mon Nov 6 17:54:25 EST 2000
world changes very fast!...
There use to be days when arr fans were trashed
just for the reason they told ir songs are bad,
arr fans in the forum named it as ir bakthi kudam" but now...
ir fans in the forum named it as arr
bakthi kudam
the World changes fast., very very fast
more creative wraps are welcome!...
- From: Swamiji (@ 198.102.112.201)
on: Mon Nov 6 17:54:45 EST 2000
Please understand that it is PERFECTLY ALRIGHT to have differing views. We need to see more MDs in TFM. Someone fresh all the time. It is not worth the time talking only about IR / ARR. This is not a game for one to win and other to lose is it?
- From: Swamiji (@ 198.102.112.201)
on: Mon Nov 6 17:57:16 EST 2000
Wrap it, why do we all like wasting time so much? I mean, dont u think all this is vetti pechu? Theres no substance in these discussions man...I believe we really wrap this pointless talk.
- From: seedan autodeskananda (@ 216.190.255.35)
on: Mon Nov 6 17:59:45 EST 2000
swamiji...vanakam...
"triton sakthi theriyumo"
..thangal arulal i got it on friday...
- From: swamiji (@ 198.102.112.201)
on: Mon Nov 6 18:04:34 EST 2000
Seedan, Krishna yenkitta sonnar neenga Triton periyaval aayitternu. Now we all can see a new MD emerging I think - put up an MP3 made with it on the web. I listened to this new stuff from enya...it was so fresh...
- From: hari (@ 129.116.226.162)
on: Mon Nov 6 18:06:04 EST 2000
An MD's Classical Music skill in his Film song composition -
Now let me make it absolutely clear that I am an absolute novice as far as classical fundas go.. but I hope you people continue on what I think is a very good point brought up by fan...
My 2 cents...
1. A classical song must bring out the nuances of a raaga. Now please bear in mind, I dont have a clear idea what I am saying, but I do beleive that a raaga is characterised by certain phrases, or note progressions, which bring out the quality of that raaga, ... rather which clearly bear the stamp of that raaga.
2. Should the song situation matter in determining the skill of the MD? A valid argument (IMO) could be that the MD could have composed for a classical situation, like a Kutcheri, or a dance sequence... so it requires more skill to compose a "classical number" (as defined in 1 above) for a lighter situation like a duet, or a peppy number..blah blah... So does that factor in, when we are assessing the MDs skill in handling Classical Raagas?
So divide the classical numbers into the "classical situation-based ones" and the others,.. and see if the MD has experimented in both areas...
3. Has the MD handled a large number of raagas, or are his "classical numbers" (again as defined in 1 above) limited in raagas?
4....cant think of much more...
Finally, Statutory note - I am posting here only to continue what I believe is a good discussion, and hence learn more abt music... Anything I have said that might sound biased / needless, would be in spite of my best efforts to remain otherwise :-)
- From: Ganga (@ 129.253.193.7)
on: Mon Nov 6 18:07:26 EST 2000
...then we can have a discussion(verbal duel) on 'Is autodeskananda's village,carnatic, background music challenged?'
- From: Swamiji (@ 198.102.112.201)
on: Mon Nov 6 18:10:04 EST 2000
Yeah...then he himself might hate to participate in the thread. People here will be bashing him left-right....
- From: Swamiji (@ 198.102.112.201)
on: Mon Nov 6 18:12:22 EST 2000
Hari, nice point. A classical song is best termed classical if subbudu likes it. If he doesnt, no one will...
- From: Udhaya (@ 63.89.188.194)
on: Mon Nov 6 18:27:11 EST 2000
Udhaya ,whose postings reek of arrogance,
and mischief.
Ah, a direct, unwarranted personal attack. Only a person of high sophistication and obvious class can post like this.
- From: Bhagavathar (@ 209.43.57.44)
on: Mon Nov 6 18:30:18 EST 2000
Chandy:
You are talking as if Unni Krishnan and Nityasree told u personally ARR is good in classical music. Do you know ARR use them to steal songs from their album.
I am a software engineer too and I never copy others program ie., my principle and I stick with it. But ARR on other hand steals the program (music) from others like Ace of base, MJ etc. If you are trying to change the topic towards software engineer, I feel sorry for your ignorance. I talked about an individual and he is ARR.
Trend:
You don't consider Kizhakku Seemaiyilae, Karuthamma, Taj Mahal as village based movies. That proves that ARR successfully made those movies not folkish with his music.
8 years in the drain no improvement from ARR. No one has ever convinced me that he is good MD. You know whats sad he is going garner all awards. As a tamilian I will be proud about it at the same time I feel bad it goes to wrong person. Just being unduly popular it doesn't mean he is better than others.
- From: SM (@ 63.101.96.1)
on: Mon Nov 6 18:33:47 EST 2000
Trend,
It is obvious that you misunderstood my post. I only meant that many of the ARR bashers here only give statements like 'ARR sucks', 'ARR is killing TFM', etc. and when someone asks them to substantiate it, they don't give a proper reply. I agree with you and Chandy that even now Bagavathar has not given any proper examples on how ARR is killing folk or carnatic music.
- From: seedan autodeskananda (@ 216.190.255.35)
on: Mon Nov 6 18:36:33 EST 2000
chandy and trend
...idhu thevaiya...ada pongaiya..june julyA...
pattam poochi than parakudhu parakudhu
kanna moochi than nadakudhu nadakudhu
- From: Swamiji (@ 198.102.112.201)
on: Mon Nov 6 18:39:08 EST 2000
seedan, I have to get back to work...call me when free
- From: pakkavathiyan (@ 216.34.244.19)
on: Mon Nov 6 19:31:16 EST 2000
Bhaagavatharvaal APIs/libraries usae panna dillayo:-)
- From: Bhagavathar (@ 209.43.61.59)
on: Mon Nov 6 20:04:17 EST 2000
Pakkavathiyan:
Ilai Aiyanae naan assembly language programmerakkum. :)
- From: Bhagavathar (@ 209.43.61.59)
on: Mon Nov 6 20:13:08 EST 2000
SM:
Go and see IR new albums thread ARR bashers calling IR names. I used to be a decent forum observer turned ARR basher. Sorry to say that but I have to use those words to defend from ARR blind fanatics. If you guys feel I personally offended any one please let me know
- From: Swamiji (@ 198.102.112.201)
on: Mon Nov 6 20:42:28 EST 2000
Well, Bhagavathar, I dont think it is a nice idea to break a computer becoz it returned only hexadecimal numbers all the time. If you are patient, you can exchange them for a decimal too. Like I said, why make this so personal? If it were my music and u criticized it, then I would take it personally. It is someone that composes it, and we might like or not like it - it is personal. I think theres no need to prove your point, but all you have to say is WHY u think as the way u do. If you / anyone here can explain the WHY of everything, there will be a good discussion going on indeed.
- From: G. Kuppusamy (@ 156.153.255.250)
on: Tue Nov 7 03:58:13 EST 2000
Friends i'm going to talk about the loose points in some of the arguments.
1) Swamiji by asking the 'WHY factor' you sound bit philosophical which is unrelated to this topic. I could understand and share your concern that people are unnecessarily fighting without able to convince others,right, but shouldn't they keep this spirit(!) up, i mean trying to convince the others? Thats why they altercate. But believe me, about 50-60% of this fighting was very useful to persons like me, they were educative. The provocative words from ur opponent makes you to search and give educative info about music and tfm.
2) Bhagavathar, as chandy and others say, you haven't substatiate your claim, may be u r waiting for others to give some point about which you want to argue and prove, but as they say u still have to substatiate ur claim. Chandy and others what i understood about Bhagavathar is correct then, since you talk for ARR's works, please provide him some examples. Here, Bhagavathar dont put any pre-conditions that it should be an album and all.
3) Now Chandy, Trend and other-likes, some of u pointed out( trend, i think) something like 'ARR didnt get a chance to do movies like Sindhu Bhairavi'. But should he wait for a movie like so. KVM made many movies with classical base songs before making movies like Shankaraabharanam, Thillaanaa Mohanaambal etc. Same could be argued for MSV and for IR. I expect ARR to do so. Here i dont mean that if ARR doesnt do he is incapable of doing classical based films. I cannot prove such claims. But it makes me to doubt like that. Even if i doubt i cannot say he doesnt know to make classical based songs. I would say his inclination is not in that direction, but my doubt still can be valid, right. Same kind of arguments could be taken for folk-based and BGM. Also Trend, i think, you misunderstood what Bhaagavathar's point in "He has a computer does job from him than his head.". For a Software Engineer Computer is the tool which he/she must use and it is his/her job. Can u argue that same is the case for an artist or a MD. It is a tool, it should facilitate their creativity. They are not dependent on computers as the Software Engineers do. But in this point, Bhaagavathar, i would like to point out one thing, if u give rahmaan's computer to me i can use to for Java Programming and nothing musical. If you give it to SAR, Sirpi or Deva can u claim that they give quality songs as Rahmaan gives?
4) Again swamiji, you said "We need to see more MDs in TFM. Someone fresh all the time. It is not worth the time talking only about IR / ARR. This is not a game for one to win and other to lose is it?" Why should TFM needs fresh faces all the times? Then how can one claim TFM had this person, a great MD? How can one be sure if fresh faces bring newer trends (not our pal 'trend') everytime? How can we be assured that we wont get only SARs, Sirpis, Devas if we have fresh faces. See, only old faces like KVM, MSVs, IR, ARR have proved themselves as great MDs. Had ARR introduced his trend of music in first few years and left the scene will we be able to appreciate that ARR was a good MD?
5) Well fan, i think hari had answered your question about what should be the yardstick to measure a TFM MD's work as classical. Based on my very little knowledge gathered from here and there and based on whatever info i got from people like u and others from this DF, i like to add one more point. In Carnatic style we have the singers' voice will be prominent; singer has to bring out all lakshanaas of a particular raaga in which he/she claims to sing a song; but still has to show lot of creativity in raaga aalaapana within the allowed parameters(like what Madurai Mani used to do). But this applies only for maeda kutchery. One cannot expect a Film MD to do his classical composition in this style. He/She has the liberty to make light music carnatic, but there should be a limit for such deviation. One cannot deviate too much, tamper with the raaga, make more noise and claim it as a carnatic composition. Since my music knowledge is zero i cannot say the limit for it, so, only critics of classical music and classical music persons can set this limit. Here, you can ask that how can a limit be set at a point by a few persons, it varies from human to human. Thats y the limit will be, and to a greater extent is, a range not a single point. Thats y one can see difference of opinion among the classical persons and critics in criticising a cine song when it is claimed to be in carnatic based. Hence we have to go by majority vote. This is what earns the bread for DFers :-). For our discussion purpose u, the knowledgable aruging persons, in both ends, can implicitly assume some limit and start exchanging views. During contentious points you people can decide upon quoting about the song and raaga's lakshana etc.
Finally (in this posting only, how can i leave my vazha vazhaas and kozha kozhaas), its the problem with IR Fans and ARR Fans. They bash each other quoting the opponent MDs. Poor IR and ARR. So keep this thing in your mind and continue your thoughts and arguments...
- From: Trend (@ 216.68.113.227)
on: Tue Nov 7 10:16:08 EST 2000
SM,
Sorry I sure misunderstood you.Sometimes it is difficult to distinguish comments made in genuine or sarcastic tone.
Bhagavathar,
For the above movies you mentioned barring Taj Mahal ARR had done commendable work.It mostly had folkish music.At times,he fused a little bit of other genres too.
"You are talking as if Unni Krishnan and Nityasree told u personally ARR is good in classical music. Do you know ARR use them to steal songs from their album."
Again,please refrain from making blatant unsubstantiated(you cannot even if you try) accusation.This is very unhealthy for this thread.What this may turn into is like another fight reading like "Unnikrishnan and Nithyashree Vs ARR".Nothing of that sort is necessary.
G.Kuppuswamy,
Why should ARR try hard to create chances like "Sindhu Bhairavi" just because we have to analyze his classical music composing ability?
He doesn't have any insecurities in his talent to do something just b'cos he has to prove to others how good he is.
For the chances he was offered(in any genre),he has proved himself as a high quality MD whose music is appreciated by anyone and everyone.
I dont exactly understand your stance on Computer and ARR.It seems ambivalent.What about a Account Manager who manges accounts without Computer?Once he switches to automation I don't think there is any degradation in his skill.
Hari,
Regarding your first point,
"A classical song must bring out the nuances of a raaga"
Should he stick to just one raaga or can he bring out the nuances of more than one raaga(say,as in "Kannamoochi")?
Your second point about song situation,
Nobody knows how effectively a Director communicates the situation to his MD and the MD's response to it.In some cases,however we can be sure the Director communicated well and the MD responded well.
First of all,does the situation really warrant a song or is just for commercial purpose?Nowadays, it is difficult to draw a line.
Still,classical-based and classically inclined(say for a duet or some other non-classical songs)
is a classification we can proceed further with analysis.(I think my raga knowledge sucks)
Abt your third point,I look upon people with good musical knowledge to come out with their ideas.
Sorry for such a loooooong bore.-)
Trend
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