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LAGAAN LOOSES OSCAR FALLS IN "NO MAN'S LAND"FROM BOSNIA.

Topic started by SHYAMSUNDAR.U. (@ 61.11.79.75) on Mon Mar 25 01:59:38 EST 2002.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

VERY IRONIC in a picture on cricket(LAGAAN) the oscar award has landed in "no man's land" from BOSNIA.SADLY,SHYAM SUNDAR.U.

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: Naaz (@ 24.76.127.63) on: Wed Mar 27 01:19:16 EST 2002
  
  Cosmician, I am talking about the relation between song-and-dance vis-a-vis a socio-cultural "reality." Target audience, percentage, viewership, distribution, market analysis are definitely all part of the "commercial" reality, no doubt about that.
  So, I honestly can't say if you are wrong as we both are talking about two different things.
  
  In a nutshell, what I have been addressing is this distinction:
  Song-and-Dance (in Lagaan as "realistic" film, or in in other masala productions) is Romantic (as a vision) and it has nothing to do with being a statement about the Indian "socio-cultural" Reality. The sequences are a component (or have been made to become) of the Indian Mainstream Cinema - just as much as car chases, cliffhangers, cancer deaths, obscene amounts of melodrama and mush, family photos at the end are...it is a part of a storytelling package.
  
  
• From: cosmician (@ 194.170.127.161) on: Wed Mar 27 02:48:28 EST 2002
  
  Naaz....
  
  our discussion reminds me of a dialogue in Kandukonden Kandukonden (Rajiv Menon takes a swipe at the state-of-affairs in Indian cinema)....Ajith's father in the film - a down-to-earth businessman sees his son (almost a failed movie-director) at the marriage hall working as a light-boy...and then advises him, showing him the wide array of food being served...."serve the white man a piece of chicken and he'll be happy, but our country needs variety in one serving"...
  
  The fact is when making commercial movies, the population of India is too heterogeneous that you can't afford to make a homogeneous movie...
  
  But with a burgeoning population that is english educated, fed on Hollywood movies, more adapted to a western lifestyle and thinking...we are seeing films that cater to these audience appearing minus the songs we so much abhor...
  
  But IMO, artificiality can be avoided in film songs...and even there is a place for songs in a mega-budget Hollywood action film..provided it is shot and integrated in the right way...
  
  
• From: cosmician (@ 194.170.127.161) on: Wed Mar 27 02:52:19 EST 2002
  
  For eg...you can see such poetry in action in John Woo's films...in Mission Impossible 2...Tom Cruise meets the heroine in a Spanish party where the Tarantula is being danced...the way the whole scene was edited was fantastic...I can see such sophitication appearing in our Tamil Film songs soon !
  
  
• From: Vijay (@ 128.88.255.122) on: Wed Mar 27 03:34:08 EST 2002
  
  Huh. I wonder how "Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon" won some accolades. Realism ? Duh ?
  
  
• From: cosmician (@ 194.170.127.161) on: Wed Mar 27 04:40:22 EST 2002
  
  sorry typo..sophitication....sophistication !
  
  
• From: WhyNot (@ 203.24.100.132) on: Wed Mar 27 05:56:45 EST 2002
  
  "Song-and-Dance (in Lagaan as "realistic" film, or in in other masala productions) is Romantic (as a vision) and it has nothing to do with being a statement about the Indian "socio-cultural" Reality."
  Well put Naaz.
  Like I said to Bharath earlier, the musicals (which like it or not most Indian movies are, whether suitable for the storyline or otherwise) are not expected to portray reality (by most of the Indian moviegoers, even if labelled as B & C centre audience). Most seem to want a fantasy to be lost in for a few hours, outside their own dreary lives and do not expect any reality or intellectual stimulation from the movies. Hence musicals, even if backward and irritating, continue to remain popular and over time has started defining Indian cinema. The musical style of Indian movies does not portray the socio-cultural reality of the Indian society, but IMO, portrays the 'socio-cultural' reality (if I may use tat term in tis context) of Indian cinema as it is today and has been over several decades.
  I once read an interesting article about how while an affluent society enjoying peaceful living wud prefer their movies to be realistic, those from less privileged societies and audience going thro war-times actually prefer fairy-tale like and fantasy based movies which help them to get relief from their own reality. I read tis about 1/2 a decade ago, and the views expressed were mostly the author's but I feel that there is some truth in it.
  
  
• From: sarat (@ 66.190.81.158) on: Wed Mar 27 07:39:26 EST 2002
  
  I think this whole song and dance thingy in movies is entirely dependent on what the moviegoer is used to seeing and not whether they need to be there or whether they are part of our socio-cultural psyche or whatever...
  Tamas was made in the same country as Kathal Desam.
  If you start making movies without songs in India, after about 5 years junta will not like songs in movies.
  If you make 10 movies like Moulin Rouge every year in Hollywood, they would also get used to it.
  
  
• From: Naaz (@ 24.76.127.63) on: Wed Mar 27 09:36:09 EST 2002
  
  Vijay - Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon was admittedly a fantasy, just like any other. But what turned it around was how it took every risk to "redefine" the "martial arts" genre with a "feminist" emphasis. That was at the heart of its success. "Moulin Rouge" did the same thing - using "music" from different periods in pop-cultural history - to tell a tale of romantic love. But in Hollywood (almost every time - Rain Man, Forrest Gump, Girl Interrupted, One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, ) a film involving a mentally challenged or disabled protagonist does tap into huge drums of sympathy votes. Hence, A Beautiful Mind about a schizophrenic-nobel prize winner won the top two - picture and director Oscars. Another thing to bear in mind is that A Beautiful Mind was about an AMERICAN genius - And we all know how America loves its own - first and foremost.
  
  Cosmician, I fully concur. Music and Songs can be part of a film - but it has to be a relevant part of the plot/exposition. It should be an integral part of the STORY (not an escapist digression.) Indian Mainstream Cinema's song-and-dance routine is usually (in theatres) an excuse for a coffee/smoke/or bathroom break.
  
  Sarat - for every Tamas (or Madhilukkal, Nimmajanam , Piravi or Agraharathil Kazhudhai) there are 50 Kabhie Khushi Kabhie Ghams and Kadhal ThisandThat...And that is precisely why I make the distiction between "mainstream" and "alternative" cinemas of India.
  
  
• From: Naaz (@ 24.76.127.63) on: Wed Mar 27 09:46:51 EST 2002
  
  Cosmician - BTW, I do like the songs from Indian films. I love Music (no abhor here :-). But, I must acknowledge that the S&D routines do seem extraneous (to the plot) and are better suited for 30 minute segment of Chitrahaar or Oliyum Oliyum. A very indigenous Music Video Special.
  
  
  
  
  
• From: Bharath (@ 156.153.255.126) on: Wed Mar 27 10:43:39 EST 2002
  
  my point was never about reality. It was always about the quality of fantsay. I think musical fantasy has been fairly exhausted ( 15 years by hollywood and 50 by us ).
  
  It is now at a point where it looks childish and primitive..sort of a joke..
  
  The MTV music video style improvements that we seem to make to our S&D routines doesnt seem to help. as the whole concepts has stagnated in the first place...
  
  All it takes is 1 movie, that takes B & C center audience into trust and challenges their intellect. If 1 movie crosses the barrier and becomes a hit then we will slowly see a revolution.
  
  what we have now is a completely inferior fantasy..much inferior to the splendid imagination by CTHD. remember not all their movies are like this this was special. we cant say the same thing.
  
  As usual tamil & malayalam movies show the greatest potential but i think as usual hindi movies with all its garbage will be the first to break the barrier. they always seem to have the 1 good exception..
  
  cosmician,
  
  there are huge discussin clubs.. not only internet but also membership clubs that discuss about music..
  
  you will amazed the extent to which virtual clubs can discuss stuff... i did a simple search in google and got overwhelming results
  
  you have many talented artists in tfm because this was the only medium. now if slowly a music industry opens up in india there will be so many more.. look at hindi music.. there are so many artists (lots of em junk) in MTV.. not all of em are in movie biz. look at the talent that has sprung out..
  
  I think if bach beethoven were alive now. they would be doing what John Williams is doing.
  
  if movies were there in 18th century... they wud have moved out of song dance much earlier .
  
  evolution seems so natural in the west. whereas we seem to be stuck in ice-age forever. maybe thats why we are 3rd world countries.. because or evolution and growth is so limited..
  
  
• From: Naaz (@ 24.76.127.63) on: Wed Mar 27 10:52:50 EST 2002
  
  Resistance to Qualitative Change is the essential problem with the Indian Mainstream Cinema. Nowadays it is mostly a celebration of dressed-up junk.
  
  
• From: rajaG (@ 208.24.179.211) on: Wed Mar 27 12:16:29 EST 2002
  
  Bharath: Excellent view-points. Unfortunately, the trends seemed to be reversing/regressing in the recent past - HAHK was a prime example and KKKG scares me. Hollywood, with all its flaws and deficiencies, still makes movies with the average audience in mind NOT the lowest level (in terms of awareness) of audience in mind. Bolly/Kolly do not, yet.
  
  
• From: sarat (@ 128.192.5.156) on: Wed Mar 27 12:50:58 EST 2002
  
  I do not think song and dances insult anybody's intellect.Regressive storylines and lyrics do.
  If you want music to reach a larger audience in India, I think films are the ONLY way to do it right now.
  
  
• From: NCR (@ 206.30.30.2) on: Wed Mar 27 13:35:50 EST 2002
  
  Who is afraid of Hollywood, Aamir?
  
  http://www.samachar.com/features/270302-vijay.html
  
  A nice article.
  
  
• From: Bharath (@ 156.153.255.126) on: Wed Mar 27 13:44:47 EST 2002
  
  Thanks rajaG !
  
  //"still makes movies with the average audience in mind NOT the lowest level (in terms of awareness) of audience in mind"//
  
  correct! this is a concise summary of what I wanted to say. We think the "lowest level" audience are a weak link in the chain. And we do our cause no good by further under estimating an already lowly estimated C class audience.
  
  
  
• From: rajaG (@ 208.24.179.129) on: Wed Mar 27 14:16:50 EST 2002
  
  This specifically in reference to thamizh films-
  
  While it is NOT critical that a person belonging to the movie industry has to have advance degrees, you cannot flood the industry with ettaanglass drop-outs, ex-lightboys, edupidis, make-up men, masquerading as directors/story writers/senior-technicians and expect them to create a Titanic, Jurassic Park, Patton, E.T., A Beautiful Mind, and other such productions.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
• From: Naaz (@ 24.76.127.63) on: Wed Mar 27 16:45:53 EST 2002
  
  There ARE Hollywood films that cater to the lowest common denominator...in "awareness."
  A few recent, random examples (last 3 years)
  Road Trip, Freddie Got Fingered, Rush Hour 2, Bring It On, Little Nicky, Big Mamma's House, Black Knight, Booty Call, Phat Beach, Deuce Bigalo Male Gigolo, All Movies starring Pauly Shore, American Pie 1&2, Joy Ride, Dude Where's My Car? and so on and so on...These movies have taken notions of vulgarity, visual symbolism, double entendres, sexual objectification (in the lewdest sense,) and celluloid meaninglessness to a whole different (and infantile) high.
  
  And oh, I must also mention this... many of the above have had successful box-office returns!!
  
  
  

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