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Why ARR's BGM is still bad even after 10 years??!!

Topic started by Saran (@ 164.164.46.20) on Thu Apr 25 06:53:28 EDT 2002.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Surprising! Even after 10years, ARR still a kid in BGM. Even in his latest KM, BGM lacks a lot. Especially in the scenes where the BGM need to lift the scene. Does his musical talent is LIMITED only to the songs or his CREATIVITY misses something whenever it comes to BGM or does he need MUCH MORE TIME to compose it? Yeah, i agree perceptions differ. Lets see how it goes.....

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: WN (@ 203.24.100.132) on: Tue May 7 04:08:44 EDT 2002
  
  Kupps, you are going back to the same old argument of hit/flop.
  
  What I am syaing is this:
  
  IT DOES NOT MATTER IF THE MOVIE BECOMES HIT/FLOP.
  
  Please read my post carefully.
  
  VCCR was a stupid movie (IMO) that had no personalities (except the villain), no good storyline, no entertainment value, no importance for the music, nothing different for experimentation. Even if it had become a hit, I'd have still called it thrash!
  
  I am not associating entertainment value with only a few personalities. I was giving a few examples to illustrate what I meant. My list is not exhaustive, it's simply a sample.
  
  Working with a big name does not ensure a HIT (which I'm saying is not the important nor sensible criteria), but it will ensure good quality and ambience for the songs (which is what matters IMO).
  
  And what do u mean "Rhythm shud be in 4 instead of 2."?? It had 4 songs covering the 4 elements.
  
  
• From: Kupps (@ 156.153.255.134) on: Tue May 7 04:16:18 EDT 2002
  
  i meant Rhythm is a movie that is intrincially linked to the plot. That five element stuff is a gimmick; ad idea. Whats so great about those 5 elements esp. with ARR's music? If it were not those 5 elements then also the music was going to be the same.
  
  IMHO being hit is a very good and primary indicator of an entertainer, a masala movie. Thats y i took box office hit argument for entertainers. A murattukkaaLai or sagalakalaavallavan differs from a VCCR in a very few aspects which will not be pronunced so easily during the initial stages in which a MD is signed. Given such a situation i thought that and thats why i posted the box office hit thing.
  
  
• From: Kupps (@ 156.153.255.134) on: Tue May 7 04:32:10 EDT 2002
  
  
  3. Most Expensive MD
  Most expensive MD in TFM. If he wasnt worth all this money, no one will be still queuing up for him. Economics wud have worked its way to lowering his price or the number of assignments he is offered.
  
  
  Truly speaking, imho a most expensive is not a feature of being the top MD. Its a "side effect" of being the top MD.
  
  During his period IR was a top MD. He was having a flexi approach towards fees unlike ARR (the reason could be valid or invalid, thats not the point here). A AVM or GV could approach him and could pay him 25lac or 50lac. At the same time a sangili murugan could approach him with, say only 4lac. All have got good songs also.
  
  However, since ARR follows the rigid method. After a couple of set backs like alli arjuna, PP etc. even if a producer, say, A.M.Rathnam wishes to reduce his fee he would hesitate. Its not because of ARR is most expensive, its because of ARR is top MD and a rift with him and hence an "not-so-expected" sales of audio wud be a bigger set back. Coz 5 crore invested 0.5 crore loss, even though it is 10%, is still a big amount. Whereas 30lac invested and 10lac loss wud be comparitively bearable. I'm not implying that ARR wud do that. I'm thinking that a producer wud be thinking so of not taking such risks. This cud also be one reason for ARR's fee still being high even after these setbacks.
  
  But WhyNot, one thing, i read somewhere, that MR pays very less (un imaginable for ARR's fee structure) to ARR, even now. I'm not sure if it is true. If that is the case then ARR is doing in a smaller way like what IR is/was doing (flexi method), but ofcourse in reverse direction :-).
  
  
• From: yaaro (@ 195.93.33.177) on: Tue May 7 06:41:48 EDT 2002
  
  //Then there are absolute thrashes like the normal Ramarajan/Murali item-//I dont think you are being fair here at all.Some of these films
  had fantastic songs.How will you classify pagalnilavu-should IR have given good music atall-
  since according to your postings,
  -director is a newcomer,hero is Murali(!),
  and for all we know the movie might flop.So
  play it safe and save the good tunes till MR
  becomes popular or even better till Murali
  becomes good looking!
  If only kamal,rajini,ajith,vikram and vijay can act who is going to do all those village based roles?The producers have to make money and there is a big market for these films outside madras! The MD should be above the looks of artistes when trying to give a no.If they will give songs to only the good looking-well,we will have about 10-20 movies ayear.
  
  
• From: WN (@ 203.24.100.132) on: Tue May 7 07:54:27 EDT 2002
  
  Thiru Prakash Ramamoorthy Avargale (a.k.a yaaro),
  again u have missed my point.
  
  "Some of these films had fantastic songs."
  Who is denying this?????????????????????
  All I'm saying is that ARR is right in not wasting his time doing fantastic songs for crap Tamil movies when he has far better options waiting for him. That is all.
  
  "for all we know the movie might flop"
  There u go again. This is not about predicting if a movie will be a hit/flop. This is about trying to produce music for a movie which has some merit in some aspect or other. If not artistic merit, at least entertainment quality. What's wrong with this? Just becos IR did not do it this way does not mean it becomes wrong to do it this way.
  
  "save the good tunes till MR becomes popular"
  If MR is talented enuf (as is Shanker) there is no need to wait for them to become popular. Talent will shine thro eventually. I was giving Mani as an example. Even if a brand new director proposes a brilliant idea or a movie which satisfies any of the criteria I outlined (again, not an exhaustive list), there is nothing wrong wit taking it further. This statement shows yaaro is either pretending not to understand what i'm saying or is really clueless about the Big Picture I'm trying to portray.
  
  "or even better till Murali becomes good looking!"
  Tis has nothing to do wit looks. Granted the actor Murali is not good-looking....but this has nothing to wit it. Have u watched Kamarasu? (i havent, thx to online movie reviews) Tat is an example of a typical standard movie by this actor. (like I said I'm talking about their usual items, not something unique or special, which may make it worthwhile). Take ramarajan movies...u can predict most of what's going to happen (including details like the shade of lipstick during the climax)...why shud ARR do music for this guy if it means he has less time to do something like TLOBS, Baba, KM or something else worthwhile?
  
  This relates to the opportunity cost involved in investing time for such movies when the same time spent cud be invested in something better. Making such good choices is what has enabled ARR to go so far with that deadly 50. Even the fact most of the movies flopped (if we go by Yaaro's list) has not cast a shadow on him and the reason for this is becos those movies included projects tat gave him an opportunity to test his limits, showcase his talents and justified his songs with good quality production or picturisations.
  
  Again, AIMHO.
  
  
• From: nrn (@ 210.186.40.156) on: Tue May 7 08:10:15 EDT 2002
  
  what you mean not good....you must be having some ear problem.....ARR brought magic to indian BGM's....if not b'coz of him we would be hearing some stupid BGM which u hear all the tamil movie...like a routine....when danger scene the same instruments are used...when love the fulte or chorus...when fight the stupid drum beat...
  
  
• From: WN (@ 203.24.100.132) on: Tue May 7 08:33:02 EDT 2002
  
  "I seriously doubt if u are a lawyer" I'm glad u do, bcos i'm not.:-)
  
  "I feel there are more things that determine this ... One of them is dominating the industry"
  In Singapore 80% of the people live in Housing Development Board flats. But tis domination of HDB flats does not mean it is the most prefered form of living for Singaporeans. If they were financially better off, most desire to own their own landed property, but alas tis does not materialise easily for the average householder.
  Can we conclude tat something tat does not dominate the market cannot be the most superior in quality? So if Deva managed to do more movies than IR in the last year, wud u say this is a reflection of the fact Deva is in fact superior to IR as he has a bigger share of the market? Since when did quantity of output (doing more movies) signify quality or popularity?
  
  "If somebody else can do what ARR can, how he can be the KING ?"
  What a flawed argument. This is like saying my two-wheeler can get me to my office, so my six-cylinder four-wheel drive is in no way superior to my bike.
  
  "Do you think Producers of DummDummDumm and Dheena lost their hope because ARR rejected those movies ?"
  I didnt know ARR rejected Dheena, but thx for the info. Why shud they lose their hope? Even after the WTC towers came tumbling down, life went on in NY.
  
  "He was the first MD to see his cut-out in front of the movie theatres (DO you think ANYBODY are doing it for ARR ?), He was the first MD to feature in cinema posters, He was the first MD to see his name in posters - even before the movies' name ('Isainjaniyin isai mazaiyil' was more important than the producer's name or director's name or ANYBODY else involved in the movie - people like kamal, rajini etc., may be exceptions), EVERY audio shop in TamilNadu had IR's picture in its name board (Nowadays they have atleast 5 or 6 faces in their nameboards and IR is still one of them !) .... I can quote more and more such things, which make me believe that IR was KING once and now there is no KING in the TFM,"
  
  Naga S, did it occur to u, that I never listed as one of the 10 reasons, things like the awards/titles won by ARR (eg Padmashree, etc) for a reason? Kupps wants me to knock out Rhythm as a marketing gimmick. What then of large sized posters and fancy titles? In Iraq, they place larger than life cut-outs of Saddam Hussein everywhere. But he is not even democratically elected. So wat's in a poster? Do u seriously think the Bigger the Poster, the Higher the status of that person? And more ridiculous still, the absence of huge posters a sign somebody is not as popular. If those cut-outs are found less these days, I'd say it's a sign that the people of TN are becoming more mature.
  
  
• From: yaaro (@ 195.93.32.168) on: Tue May 7 08:39:33 EDT 2002
  
  WN, you remain a tough nut to crack-I must admit!
  when you take kamarasu,why dont you take so many other movies murali has acted?It is like saying kamal did naanum oru thozhilali or andha oru bimidam-all rubbish movies even to a HCKF like me-and set his standard based on a few crap movies he has done.His work in kadal pookkal was really good-as was his work in aanandam and many movies lioke Idhayam.take ramarajan-you and me may not like his movies.I have met fans from villages who are absolutely thrilled with his movies.in one of the shows they were interviewing a roadside vendor from one of madurai villages and was asked why he liked maanguyile from karagattakaran-he said that he felt like he was in his native place whenever he hears that song.so people like kamal,rajini ,MR,BR,balachander(incidentally murali was his find-whatever may be his merit as a director-I personally do not like many of his movies-he was good at spotting talents as he did with you know who) do not make the beginning and end of Tamil films.
  Take for eg-sangili murugan-he knows IR from his village days.what should IR tell if he approached for music-to go home,and become popular and come back?There are whole lot of equations involved.
  
  
• From: NagaS (@ 203.195.223.210) on: Tue May 7 09:04:12 EDT 2002
  
  WN,
  
  >>>> Can we conclude tat something tat does not dominate the market cannot be the most superior in quality? So if Deva managed to do more movies than IR in the last year, wud u say this is a reflection of the fact Deva is in fact superior to IR as he has a bigger share of the market? Since when did quantity of output (doing more movies) signify quality or popularity?
  
  Hei, I never said quantity is important - it is the dominance, making sure that you are the unique leader and everybody else are secondary ... IR managed to achieve it during his peak period.
  
  >>>> What a flawed argument. This is like saying my two-wheeler can get me to my office, so my six-cylinder four-wheel drive is in no way superior to my bike.
  
  May be I didn't mention it clearly, But I accepted that ARR is superior to KR / YSR / Whoever it is .. But being superior is different from being a king., Refer to my earlier posting again, if somebody else can achieve the **Same** ARR can do (I don't want to start an argument how DDD or Dheena music would have been with ARR, But I am sure they are good albums) - then he can't be a king, ARR is just another 'talented' and 'costly' MD and thats it !
  
  >>>> I didnt know ARR rejected Dheena,
  
  He did, Dheena's first advertisement came with ARR's name !
  
  >>>> Why shud they lose their hope?
  
  Again you didn't get my point. I mean to say those producers were able to get good music from somebody else, when ARR rejected it. True, ARR was their first preference, But he is not the whole world, I mean, he is not the King :-)
  
  Compare the same with The number of 'good' albums that MDs other than IR were able to produce during IR's peak ...
  
  >>>> did it occur to u, that I never listed as one of the 10 reasons, things like the awards/titles won by ARR (eg Padmashree, etc) for a reason?
  
  Awards are great ... I agree, ARR is talented to receieve padmashri or whatever other awards he has got, no dobuts in that too ... But don't you think there are people like MSV, KVM etc., (I DON"T want to include IR here, intentionally) who made wonderful music for years and still couldn't get any awards like this - just because they were tamilans/southies and couldn't cross the barrier and reach the northies minds.
  
  ARR made history by being successful in north ... he deserves every award he has got ... but that doesn't mean people who haven't got any awards are bad or something,
  
  Now tell me how many times Don Bradman has got 'Ceat Cricketer of the year' Award ? Zero ? My sachin has got it twice or thrice ... does that make him Better than Don ?
  Sivaji has got zero national awards and Sunny deol One .... So shall we transfer the "Nadigar Thilagam" title to him ?
  
  I hope that answers your question !
  
  >>>> In Iraq, they place larger than life cut-outs of Saddam Hussein everywhere. But he is not even democratically elected. So wat's in a poster?
  
  There is a difference, 'n' number of producers who were in the field gave that perumai to IR ... IR didn't demand it (nethu vantha actorskuda rasikar mandRam vechchu poster pottukkaRa time ithu !), they did it because IR was popular, he was giving good music, he was liked by public and he was the real 'Raja' of TFM at that time ! They gave the importance an MD Deserves and thats it !
  
  >>>> Do u seriously think the Bigger the Poster, the Higher the status of that person?
  
  If I don't spend money in making big posters and **Others** do it for me - this is true as far as popularity is concerned.
  My argument was - No other MD in TFM (Taking your own words :-) was able to achieve it before or After IR ... Isn't it ? That makes it clear he was popular, he was dominating the industry, he was giving good music, beating even the smallest competition that entered the field, he was unique and I have no doubt that he was a king ! I don't think any other MD makes such a big impact in today's listening crowd !
  
  If you take only the youth (age < 25 or so) ... then ARR was very popular and dominating in that market segment - But that was two years back, Now people like HJ, Bharadwaj etc., entered there too and got considerable market share ... (If I include YSR's name here, silarukku kovam varum :-)
  
  >>>> the absence of huge posters a sign somebody is not as popular. If those cut-outs are found less these days, I'd say it's a sign that the people of TN are becoming more mature.
  
  Good one, I agree ... but don't tell me thats the reason people dont' have banners and cut-outs for A R Rahman. :-)
  
  NagaS
  
  

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