Raga of song please

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Raga of song please

Topic started by Gopal Prasad (@ greed.cs.umass.edu) on Sat May 17 07:42:45 EDT 1997.
All times in EDT +9:30 for IST.

The popular notation used on this page. The twelve notes of an octave are the following.

1   2   3   4   5   6   7  8   9  10  11  12
S  R1  R2  R3  G3  M1  M2  P  D1  D2  D3  N3
       G1  G2                     N1  N2

"Raga based film songs" Database | Old Database | Indian Classical Music Forum | Hindi Raaga of Songs Thread

Responses:

Old responses
From: IR (@ 38.220.167.239) on: Thu Dec 27 11:16:56 EST 2001

IR_Fan: All of those four ragas are closely related.

Let me start off with Chala Naattai: It is the 36th Melakartha raga - meaning it takes all the 7 notes - and any song composed in this raga should take all the seven notes in both the ascending and descending prayogas... If a song does not fit into this grammar, it would be considered to be based on an offshoot of this raga...

Chala Nattai scale: Sa Ri3 Ga3 Ma1 Pa Dha3 Ni3 Sa
Sa Ni3 Dha3 Pa Ma1 Ga3 Ri3 Sa

I am not sure if there is a film song based on pure Chala Nattai... Any help here would be appreciated!

Moving on to Naattai: This is an offshoot of Chala Naattai, which means it takes some notes of Chala Nattai, as a result of which it sounds similar to Chala Nattai in some prayogams... As with most janya ragas, there are 2 views regarding the scale of this raga.

One being, Sa Ri3 Ga3 Ma1 Pa Dha3 Ni3 Sa
Av: Sa Ni3 Pa Ma1 Ri3 Ga3 Ma1 Ri3 Sa
and the other:
Sa Ga3 Ma1 Pa Ni3 Sa -Sa Ni3 Pa Ma1 Ri3 Ga3 Ma1 Ri3 Sa
"Ri3 Ga3 Ma1 Ri3 Sa" is the most important prayogam for Naattai.. This and the absence of Dha3 in the avarohanam (descending) scale should be enough to distinguish Naattai from Chala Naattai. Maha Ganapathim is a popular song in this raga.

Jog, as ram pointed out, is considered to be a Hindhusthani Equivalent of Naattai. But it takes both the Nishadhams. Numerous scales have been given for Jog. One of those would be:
Sa Ga3 Ma1 Pa Ni3 Sa - Sa (Ni3) Ni2 Pa Ma1 Ga3 Sa Ri3 Sa.
Jog is very similar to Thilang. They both take the 2 nishadams and their scales are similar except that Jog takes a prominent Ri3. Kavidhai Kelungal karuvil pirandhadhu raagam is a beautiful song in Jog. Manadhil Urudhi vendum(Sindhu Bhairavi) is another number in Jog although for a very long time I thought it was in Thilang :-) Listen to "Kanavu Meipada Vendum" - Ri3 is clear! Or may be is it one of those songs intended to be in Thilang with a Jog touch!!!!!!

Thilang is a beautiful straight forward ragam with a reasonably standardised scale. Nalladhor veeNai seidhen is a good number.
Sa Ga3 Ma1 Pa Ni3 Sa - Sa Ni2 Pa Ma1 Ga3 Sa
(Note: Thilang is also very close to Gambeera Nattai scale - Sa Ga3 Ma1 pA Ni3 Sa - Sa Ni3 Pa Ma1 Ga3 Sa. The only difference being the Ni note on the avarohanam! It is difficult to distinguish between these ragas, unless we have a clear picture of the notes! Narumugaye is a good one in Gambeera Naattai (one of the ragas besides Maand))

Hope this helps!
From: vijay (@ 208.61.227.242) on: Thu Dec 27 14:38:00 EST 2001

IR, good writeup there..informative. for people who rely on the "feel" of the ragas for distinguishing, they will meet their ULTIMATE failure here, in trying to differentiate between the naatais :-) this from personal experience. you need to be able to pin down to the last note to identify them.

Some of the other "not-so-easy to discern" combos from personal experience, which are encountered frequently in TFM songs :

1.Madhyamavati/Brindhaavan Saranga

2. Reethi gowlai/Abheri/Suddha dhanyaasi, although I know of a characteristic Reethi Gowlai prayogam that helps me in spotting it out..

3. Sudha dhanyaasi/Hindolam

4. Dharmavati/Madhuvanti

5. Sriranjani/Abhogi/Bageshree

etc. etc.
From: hihi:-) (@ 128.111.113.76) on: Thu Dec 27 14:40:42 EST 2001

IR: there are a couple of (good) songs in chalanATTai by IR (the other IR :-) ): panivizhum malarvanam (ninaivellAm nityA); paTTu pU pU (vIrA). there are a few other songs in which IR has used chalanATTai sparingly (i dont remember them, but there is a beautiful song by jAnaki set to 5/4 beat - forgot the title again :-( )
From: IR (@ ) on: Thu Dec 27 14:47:11 EST 2001

ayyodaaaa... aaLa vidungappa ... "Isai Rasigai" - type adikka sombal - IR nnu aayiduchchu - inime would make it a point to type "isai rasigai" fully :-)

vijay :-) you are right... but, the more you listen, the better you get at distinguishing between these ragas... most film songs are not composed based on the strict grammar rules of a raga which adds to the complexity!

hihi... need to listen to Pani vizhum malar vanam again... I had this song in mind when I was writing about Chalanaattai... I am not sure if IR has used Dha3 in that song... would check once again :-)
From: Isai Rasigai (@ 38.220.167.239) on: Thu Dec 27 14:58:26 EST 2001

hihi: thanks for the pattu poo poo song... ippo thaan first time kEtten indha paatta - seems to be a good one in Chalanaattai...

listened to pani vizhum malar vanam... it does seem to be a combo of naattai and chalanaattai... naraya naattai phrases varudhu although all notes in chalanaattai are used in the song... what do you think? :-)
From: hihi:-) (@ 128.111.113.76) on: Thu Dec 27 15:06:30 EST 2001

IR: :-) listen to panivizhum and let us know what you decipher.

vijay: i use templates to fit ragams: madhyamAvathi - karpagamE kadai kaNpArAi; rIthigawLa - thalayaik kuniyum thAmaraiyE; AbEri - nagumO (of course :-) and vINAbEri; AbOgi - sAbApathikku (what a sweet song); ... so most often i miss out with cine songs because they are very "flat" :-) regarding the nATTai "family" of ragams i think nATTai is the easiest to identify followed by jog (i think the vakra prayOgams give these away).
From: hihi:-) (@ 128.111.113.76) on: Thu Dec 27 15:16:23 EST 2001

don't ask me: yours it to answer questions; not asking them :-). it's only we who can ask questions. panivizhum is another "flat" song. so it could sound, imo, whichever way you want it to sound.
From: Isai Rasigai (@ 38.220.167.239) on: Thu Dec 27 15:21:59 EST 2001

hihi :-) enna vambula maatti vidaNum nnu theermaaname paNNiteengaLa - aren't we all expressing our opinions :-)
From: MGR (@ 199.168.33.60) on: Thu Dec 27 15:22:44 EST 2001

IR, that's a good info on nattais.

Is anyone interested in discussing too-oldies ? I recently had a chance to listen to the songs from oldies haridhas, sivakavi, etc. real gems. can someone confirm the ragas of them ? here are my thoughts.

vadhanamo chandra - Sindubhairavi
vallalai paadum - Senchuruti
vasantha rudhu - Kundhala varali
amba manam kanidu - Pantu varali
annaiyum thandai - kapi
krishna mugunda - Senchuruti

The songs are available in dhool. Someone please confirm.
From: hihi:-) (@ 128.111.113.76) on: Thu Dec 27 15:31:06 EST 2001

take it easy: i am in my lab fretting over some minimization routine; so to loosen up i am having fun here :-). btw, you have started signing in full!! please dont :-)))

a couple of irrelevant questions: what carnatic songs are there in vAchaspati? is anything available online?
From: IR (@ 38.220.167.239) on: Thu Dec 27 15:43:49 EST 2001

MGR - would listen to the songs and post in a while

hihi... Paraathparaa (Papanasam Sivan) and Paahi jagadhjanani (Swati Thirunal) are 2 really popular krithis in Vaachaspathi... Music India Online has Parathpara...
From: hihi:-) (@ 128.111.113.76) on: Thu Dec 27 15:44:48 EST 2001

thanks IR.
From: IR (@ 38.220.167.239) on: Thu Dec 27 16:16:17 EST 2001

MGR - here is what I think...

Vadaname Chandra bimbamo - Sindhu Bhairavi
VaLLalai paadum vaayaal - Senjurutti
Vasantha Ruthu Manamohaname - Vasantha, KunthalavaraLi, Yathukula kambhodi
Amba Manam Kanindhunadhu - PanthuvarALi
Annaiyum Thandhaiyum - Kaapi based
Krishna Mukundha MurAre - Navaroj based..
From: MGR (@ 199.168.33.60) on: Thu Dec 27 17:11:29 EST 2001

Thanks, IR..bit close. Could you explain Navroj and Yathukula Kambhodi, with notes ?
From: RR (@ 203.125.148.110) on: Thu Dec 27 22:19:19 EST 2001

IR: what about another closed-related nattai family member, Gambeera Naattai?

vijay: 'people who rely on the "feel" of the ragas for distinguishing, they will meet their ULTIMATE failure here' - well said :)
From: mandu chloride (@ 203.196.129.98) on: Thu Dec 27 22:54:42 EST 2001

Ram,
Enne aachu? any progres?

RR,Vijay,
Hmmm! For those who rely on sheer luck when it comes to identifying raagas, (like me), we met our ULTIMATE failures so loooong ago. :-)

To anyone in Delhi,
Are you attending the Thyagaraja Utsavam in Delhi? Its around the 22nd Jan 2002 for three days. A lot of you may not know, hence the information. :-) Yenjoy!
From: IR_Fan (@ 202.88.152.159) on: Fri Dec 28 00:19:51 EST 2001

:-) IR...thanks a lot..very informative on chalanatai, natai, jog and thilang etc...can you validate these songs,

Oru Pataamboochi Nenjukulle Sutruginradhe - Kaadhalukku Mariyaadhai - ( CHALANATAI)

Peygala nambaathe pinjile vembhadhe - Mahanadhi (NATAI)

Maadathile Kanni Maadathile - Veera - (CHALANATAI)

Metti Oli Kaatrodu - Metti - (Jog)
From: mandu chloride (@ 203.196.129.98) on: Fri Dec 28 06:48:26 EST 2001

Does anyone remember which movie had the song 'Enne Sattam inda neram..' . What were the other songs from this movie?
Thanks.
Oh also, would anyone have the theme song of Malgudi days? Can't get hold of it anywhere. PLEASE.
From: Kupps (@ 156.153.255.134) on: Fri Dec 28 07:23:50 EST 2001

neha
i don't know about a song enna sattam(law) indha naeram but i know about a song enna saththam(sound/noise) indha naeram. Its from the movie Punnagai Mannan -- Kamal, revathy, rekha starrer. Song Sung by SPB; Music by IR; Film directed by K.Balachander.
From: Kupps (@ 156.153.255.134) on: Fri Dec 28 07:28:10 EST 2001

other songs in that movie are:
1) aedhaedho ennam vaLarthaen (K.S.Chitra)
2) kaala kaala maga vaazhum kaadhalukku (SPB, SJ?)
3) vaan maegam poo poovaai thoovum (KSC?)
4) maamavukku kuduma kuduma (Malaysia)
5) singaLaththu chinna kuyilae (SPB, KSC?)
6) kavidhai kaeLungaL karuvil priandhadhu (VaniJ)
7) one two three four now (Francis Lawser)
....

aedhaavadhu paattu vitturundha sollungappa/mma.

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