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Where did Hey Ram and Sirai Chaalai' music fail in relation to the epic Lagaan

Topic started by rf (@ 172.164.126.190) on Sun Oct 21 02:08:51 EDT 2001.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Lagaan is a must see, though it did not come from Chennai, it is a must see to understand so many things about what TFM and TFilms in general have missed out in catering to a global audience. An actor who gave us Appoorva Sahotharargal with Ilayaraja Hey Ram was a big mistake and lacking in thinktank. Kamalhasan depended on Hype for that abstract storyline to sell. Sirai Chaalai was too stuffed i believe with elements that it lacked proper perspective and its songs were just ordinary attempts. A period film should have the type of music ARR created for Lagaan. Amazing stuff! (IMHO, Lagaan has become my favorite film in all aspects (screenplay, acting, story, casting and the bgm and songs)while Apoorva Sahotharargal is my second favorite...) I am saying that IR should come out of his mould and look at a world audience in taking up assignments like period films and be open to suggestions/criticisms/information and keep eyes and ears to the ground. IMHO, directors prpoducers are shunning him because audience has changed but IR cares only for Mozart and Bach and not for contemporary ideas. Lagaan is a good lesson for how Marudanayagam's music should be composed. I know HCIRF cannot accept this, it will take time as it took me (SuperFanofIR) to learn.

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: yaaro (@ 195.93.34.186) on: Mon Oct 22 01:49:16 EDT 2001
  
  //I think we tamils having analyzed profoundly and exhaustively, all orchestration and wcm qualities of IR music have simply lost the ability to comprehend simplistic tunes. we label them "nursery rhymes" and hence loose tuch with the common world.//
  bharath, tfm tunes (and old hindi tunes)were indeed complex.what was different after IR's entry was complicated orchestration as never seen before.after ARR came these features of FM simply vanished:
  grand BGM's(best bgm fro from IR,IMO is geethanjali-hmmm....)
  amma atha songs
  thalattu songs
  dappanguthu
  you remember the complicated aalapanas with which so many songs started-poomalaiyil or malligai, nilave vaa,recently kelada maanida from barathy are a few-we dont hear them anymore
  complex orchestrations
  this generation of players are more used to synthetic instruments and sounds.prassana had mentioned in his article that IR had elevated the quality of players so much-we now have a generation which is having it easy-these things go round in circle.if and when a composer of IR's calibre comes,i think they are going to find themselves lacking.
  
  //have simply lost the ability to comprehend simplistic tunes. we label them "nursery rhymes" and hence loose tuch with the common world. //
  I think we are in denial here-this common world was the one in which MSV-TR and KVM and IR thrived.so dont blame the public-it is the responsibility of artiste to elevate the fans' taste.I think ARR and the current generation of MD's have failed in that aspect.My initiation in WCM was mainly because of IR-this has only heightened my respect for his music.here we have someone who can compose a symphony, do a concert in narada gana sabha, and whose music is strongly rooted in south indian folk music-has there ever been a complete musician in music history?
  
  
  
  
• From: velramanan (@ 202.88.154.169) on: Mon Oct 22 01:51:17 EDT 2001
  
  Here are a few opinions of "learned people in carnatic" like semmangudi, WCM conductors (LARY BAIN,ZUBIN MEHTA), top class singers (Hariharan, Yesudoss) and ordinary people (no offence meant) like Bharathiraja, R.V.Udhayakumar,you and me (aren't we all just ordinary listeners)" on the genius phenomenon called ilaiyaraja.
  
  (By the way, who is rf that this thread is referring to....guess he should be a top class music critic of the 21st century....boy, he should be something...imagine, to analyse lagaan, siraichalai and Hey Ram...well)
  
  SEMANGUDI SRINIVASA AYYAR - " Raja has that unique gift to please common man and carnatic experts alike.Until recently, I knew that Shri Ilayaraaja is a great film music director - his expertise in diluting Carnatic Ragas without diluting their native merits, is well known to me - but recently I had the oppurtunity to listen to him sing a few kirthanas - he sang a kirthana in Raag Abhogi - very well rendered - in Carnatic Sangeet, one needs to know the Sahityam - without knowing it, one should not sing it making it sound absurd - Isai gyani Shri.Ilayaraaja sang it very beautifully and his grasp of the Sahityam is commendable. After today, I realise that Shri.Ilayaraaja is a thorough expert in Carnatic music. May the God Almighty bless Isai Gyani with a long life so that he can render a long service to music "
  
  LARY BAIN( England Based Composer)-"He is unbelievable, genius and fantastic"
  
  LALGUDI JAYARAMAN - " His talent is not the fruit of one single birth's efforts. This level of achievement is only possible to one who has lived with music for countless births. The speed with which he writes notations have always baffled me "
  
  Dr.BALAMURALIKRISHNA -" As far as i am concerned, i would say Ilaiyaraja is the composer of the century. If there is one single authority on 'orchestration' it can only be ilaiyaraja.
  
  K.J.YESUDASS - "There is infinite music forms that is hidden in this man's heart. All that should flow-out for the good of mankind."
  
  VAALI (South Indian Lyricist/Poet) - " Reethigowlai, Hamsanatham, Bilahari etc are some of the ragas that he has deftly handled for film music. He is not isaignani, he is swaragnani."
  
  ZUBIN MEHTA Music Conductor,( Israel Philharmonic)- " I was bewildered after listening to his 'nothing but wind' and 'how to name it'. He belongs to the 21st century and perhaps beyond."
  
  DIRECTOR BHARATHIRAAJA - " I shoot scenes with a particular impact in mind. And even before i discuss about what i have in mind, he is already ready with mind boggling BGM bits.( In that programme Bharathiraaja explained about special 'mudhal mariyaathai' film scenes with wide eyes and astonishment)"
  
  DIRECTOR R.V.UDAIYAKUMAR - "He was writing the background score for Chinna Kounder. In a particular scene i had made a very glaring error in designing the flow of shots. He asked me why i was a bit moody. I said i have made a mistake in choosing the shots. He simply said - I just now corrected your mistake with the BGM. Listen to this !!"
  
  DIRECTOR MANIRATNAM - "Illaiyaraja is absolutely prolific. He is an amazing talent who believes that the music written down by him should be stuck to totally. And then it is recorded which is just a matter of execution. I wish I could be like Ilaiyaraja and work out everything on paper."
  
  JOSEPH EAGER, Conductor, World Symphony Orchestra -"His music will be heard through the twenty-first century" predicted at a function to release the CD of his album Nothing But Wind in New York in 1988.
  
  VICTOR RANGEL RIBEIRO, a well-known musicologist and author of Baroque Music - "Your ears will hear music like they never heard before"
  
  STEPHEN DAVIS of New Age - "He is leading us to a very special world of music appreciation and has opened doors of new horizons of new age music"
  
  Prof. SHERYAR OOKERJEE, a Bombay based musicologist writes,"Bach's influence is deep and all pervasive in his music. He is adept at using conventional western harmony and standard western techniques. Uses dialogue and imitation extensively. He has a competent grasp of the orchestra. His conspicuous quality is his ability to so integrate the Indian and western idioms that the seams can hardly be noticed and the result is usually pleasant, charming and satisfying. Ilaiyaraaja's music is enjoyable and worth taking very seriously. It grows on one with repeated hearings".
  
  DIRECTOR, ACTOR PAARTHIBAN - " Isai alias raja, raja alias isai."
  
  DIRECTOR, ACTOR KAMALHAASAN - ",Ilaiyaraja should be honored as Isai Vigyani (musical scientist) rather than Isai gyani.He has explored and analyzed virtually every type of music.I have worked with several composers. But this man is on his own trip - he is a colossal talent. We have worked together in around 70 films and we know each other's requirements and expectations very well. He saw the rushes of the film (Hey Ram!) just once and immediately decided the music to be scored for the song sequences that have already been picturised. I told my film crew to give me a week's time and that I will come back with one song in that time - instead I came back with seven songs."
  
  HARIHARAN, Playback Singer,"Ilaiyaraja's style is very different. He has been heavily influenced by the classical compositions of Mozart and Bach."
  
  LASLOV KOVACH, Conductor, (Budapest Symphony Orchestra, Hungary) - ," He is Hollywood Kind."
  
  RAJKUMAR SANTOSHI, Director (on Lajja's Background music by Maestro Ilayaraaja) - ,"The discipline of the 90 musicians, the conductor and the recording engineers of the Budapest Symphony Orchestra in Hungary was overwhelming. The musicians gave a standing ovation after recording the scores."
  
  MARK LAYCOCK, (Director of Orchestral Activities, Iowa State University, Iowa, United States of America),"A fascinating blend of Eastern and Western styles. The music is instantly appealing -- rhythmically, harmonically, formally. The use of traditional Indian instruments in a modern musical context makes for a rich palette of tone colors and creates a wide range of expressive possibilities."
  
  NAUSHAD ALI (doyen of hindi film music)- ,"That this man has achieved is 100 times more than what any of us have achieved; only time can tell the quantum of his achievements."
  
  HARIPRASAD CHAURASIA, (exponent of Hindustani Classical Music) - ," It is a treat watching him (Mr.Ilayaraaja) work - he does everything, composing, arrangement of instruments, orchestration and conducting - that too without the help of any assistants and a stopwatch."
  
  L.SUBRAMANIAM (Violin Maestro)-,"Ilayaraaja is as good as any composer in the world."
  
  
  ["knock knock knock"...is rf still around or has he hung himself.]
  
  
• From: yaaro (@ 195.93.34.186) on: Mon Oct 22 01:56:56 EDT 2001
  
  //has there ever been a complete musician in music history?//
  should read as //has there ever been a MORE complete musician in music history?//
  
  
  
• From: cosmician (@ 194.170.127.161) on: Mon Oct 22 02:35:51 EDT 2001
  
  Velramanan...
  
  IR is a Legend - accepted - all those names you have mentioned above are now the old generation...nothing wrong...they are right.
  
  Yaaro...
  
  YOu are crossing the line when you say something extremely stupid as this :
  
  >>I think we are in denial here-this common world was the one in which MSV-TR and KVM and IR thrived.so dont blame the public-it is the responsibility of artiste to elevate the fans' taste.I think ARR and the current generation of MD's have failed in that aspect.My initiation in WCM was mainly because of IR-this has only heightened my respect for his music.here we have someone who can compose a symphony, do a concert in narada gana sabha, and whose music is strongly rooted in south indian folk music-has there ever been a complete musician in music history? <<
  
  You have judged your taste and IR based entirely on Carnatic and Western Classical ...even IR and other great stalwarts won't accept this....they all say that Music is an ocean....and these great stalwarts will humbly accept that they could only achieve within the parameters they limited themselves to operate within (like Carnatic /Western Classical etc.)..but remember as the Greats have said Music is an Ocean by itself and cannot be culturally or instrumentally limited. Tha'st what the changing times of today has proved. Music cannot be approached as Carnatic or Western Classical alone...these are only systems that can be used to explore the ocean...what is more important in today's times is to learn to accept the diversity of the world and let Music set the example it has always set - that it is beyond language, cultures, religions, sex, race or creed.
  
  
  
  
• From: cosmician (@ 194.170.127.161) on: Mon Oct 22 02:42:44 EDT 2001
  
  I expected IR to start experimenting with the new vistas opened up by digital technology as well as the changing trends in the world as early as 1985...maybe I am as what someone said earlier in this thread "an ordinary listener" and should not expect such things from geniuses...ARR has started off where IR left off....maybe he doesn't use massive and complicated orchestration but he has definitely proved that passion and devotion can elevate songs to a different plane and in the result he has broken all the established patterns of an almost decadent system of music gasping for fresh air and even won mass appeal in the process.
  If massive and complex orchestrations are the only signs of a musical genius..then the computer can definitely be called one....
  
  

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