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Where did Hey Ram and Sirai Chaalai' music fail in relation to the epic Lagaan

Topic started by rf (@ 172.164.126.190) on Sun Oct 21 02:08:51 EDT 2001.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Lagaan is a must see, though it did not come from Chennai, it is a must see to understand so many things about what TFM and TFilms in general have missed out in catering to a global audience. An actor who gave us Appoorva Sahotharargal with Ilayaraja Hey Ram was a big mistake and lacking in thinktank. Kamalhasan depended on Hype for that abstract storyline to sell. Sirai Chaalai was too stuffed i believe with elements that it lacked proper perspective and its songs were just ordinary attempts. A period film should have the type of music ARR created for Lagaan. Amazing stuff! (IMHO, Lagaan has become my favorite film in all aspects (screenplay, acting, story, casting and the bgm and songs)while Apoorva Sahotharargal is my second favorite...) I am saying that IR should come out of his mould and look at a world audience in taking up assignments like period films and be open to suggestions/criticisms/information and keep eyes and ears to the ground. IMHO, directors prpoducers are shunning him because audience has changed but IR cares only for Mozart and Bach and not for contemporary ideas. Lagaan is a good lesson for how Marudanayagam's music should be composed. I know HCIRF cannot accept this, it will take time as it took me (SuperFanofIR) to learn.

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: A music lover (still a Raja Fan!) (@ 172.173.33.224) on: Sun Oct 21 17:05:01 EDT 2001
  
  yaaro, pls do not talk stupid. i am a critic not a blind fan and i give my feedback - so what is crazy about it. what is the need to get head examined for writing a honest feedback? i do not get u? honestly, u are quite a weird guy? was there sometthing in the website that said criticism not welcome? you tell me buddy, is Raajangahm your property?
  
  But i am sorry to post that there! such a feedback was not appropriate, i understand. if they do not like that let them tell me. we are all entitled to our opinions. this is a forum and be democratic, do not been closed in your views as long as we speak respectfully. (you apparently lack that.) IR's Guru is an accomplishment, but popular appeal? I am sorry, not much there. I listen to music a lot and I am just giving ideas not condemning IR. still you do not understand things that i am mentioning (beethoven's music is mostly introspective, not complex at all... go listen to his sonatas too and you will see simplicity.) IR does not need my criticism because he is millions times ahead of anyone's criticism and if that feedback is going to need my head examined you must tell me the reason for that. But, I believe the Maestro is not experimental these days and maybe not interested in popular appeal anymore. i am just saying my point of view in perspective of ARR's Lagaan. view things in perspective don't f....ing get stuck with one idea - then you could join fundamentalists. don't get scared because an IRFan said dissent. calm it buddy... if this forum can tolerate dumb garbage from several fanatics then i would not like to revisit and give my opinion. you tell me. i am here giving some depth to these boring discussions because i feel i can do it, not because i am trying hard to be intelligent. and buddy, pls be careful when u admonish you sound like taliban... (;----) An IR can compose brilliant music, his fans can follow appreciate until ARR comes along and does something different. It is upto one to be more generous and accept something new and brilliant for what it is. That is a true music lover and a human being. Anyway, convey my apologies to raajangahm if you are part of it and please delete that message as i did not mean to seriously place it there, it was just inadvertent.
  
  
• From: yaaro (@ 172.188.223.2) on: Sun Oct 21 17:27:12 EDT 2001
  
  
  i think your posting sticks out like a sorethumb among all other postings in raajangahm-i still think as countless fans do his music is ultimate-me one among them-this after hours and hours of listening to all types of music.i am entitled to my opinion as you are to yours -but there is a place to voice your thoughts-even here some one was quite fed up with all this comparision business-and you go about starting a totally new thread which precisely is doing that.
  //listen to beethovens sonatas and you realise the simplicity-//i was wondering when you were going to say that-you have picked on the most complex of IR's scores to decide he has 'too many notes'i think ARR's tunes are too simple.that is my opinion.that is one reason i am not too impressed with his ability to create tunes.
  
  
  
• From: To MS (@ 132.235.17.37) on: Sun Oct 21 18:10:47 EDT 2001
  
  MS, Radha kyon na jale is no trite song. Listen to its intro starting with the bells and other percussion, and then the drum rolls. even the tune is very much hindustani, considering that a South Indian composed it. And even the interludes have a good feel with different instruments and sounds. If IR has composed that song, I bet u wud have gone gaga over that.
  
  
• From: Normal Man (@ 202.12.144.21) on: Sun Oct 21 19:50:13 EDT 2001
  
  Guys please, for heaven's sake do not compare Guru with Hey Ram or Lagaan. Guru is one of the wonders to have come from IR in recent times. Alas it was not popularized or was confined to a small group of viewers. Just listen to the starting piece of "thathaaram mozhi...". I personally feel its a work miles above and a under-recognized master piece.
  
  
• From: Bharath (@ 66.137.224.194) on: Sun Oct 21 22:41:54 EDT 2001
  
  Actually this is a good topic. And I have a different explanation.
  
  I'll firs explain Lagaan and from then the other 2 will be obvious
  
  Why it succeeded
  Lagaan:
  1)Movie did well.
  2) essentially a Hindi Cast
  3) Essentially Hindi sounding. (aka no complex orchestration but simple sounds and tunes)
  
  Why it Failed:
  Kaalapaani:
  1) Complex orchestration
  2) music ONLY for an elite class of wcm learned
  3) highly unsimplistic tunes ..especially "sutrum sudar vizhi parvaiyile.." with all its brilliant orchestration.. it should have been equalant to explaining complex finite element mathematics to a 3rd std student who just know multiplication (hfm audience)
  4) IR has slogged his backside off an a movie which lacked pathetically in script and screenplay.
  5) No one notices BGM in hfm. Plus complex orchestration distracts them from their exppectation of a simple tune to get DRAWN into the song first.
  6) I am sorry IR will never e understood by hindi folks. he will not change (step down) to their taste.never seems (wants) to.
  
  Hey Ram:
  1) complex story
  2) non-hindi caste
  3) non-hindi sounds (aka carnautic)
  
  In summary: IR gave a Robert Ludlum classic when all that was required was a Archie comics.
  
  I think we tamils having analyzed profoundly and exhaustively, all orchestration and wcm qualities of IR music have simply lost the ability to comprehend simplistic tunes. we label them "nursery rhymes" and hence loose tuch with the common world.
  
  Some one needs say "simplicity Clareese" to tfm audience like Hannibal lecter said to CLareese :-)
  
  Again I squarely blame IR and Priyadarshan for the failiure of "kaalapani" some times alavukku athikamaana amruthamum....
  
  
  
  
• From: musicforpeace (@ 205.188.197.177) on: Mon Oct 22 00:20:41 EDT 2001
  
  yaaro my friend in IR's music, this is analytical discussion, not negative comparison war. any discussion cause mixed feelings, but this here is intelligent and decent comments. depends on how you open your mind and see it. and, if you cannot appreciate ARR'(they are really brilliant) compositions, then i feel you could think about having ur head examined ;--). well, it is upto u, they are composers, we buy their music. u happen to save a lot of money though! btw, i am sure my comments could be put in a page called criticism or unwanted opinions or deleted at www.raajangahm.com than let it stick like a sore thumb which could hurt the sentiments of insecure fan (atics). i think welcoming any decent comments is better than no comments or indecent ones. we get fresh views. but, i think i will recede from this forum if people like yaaro evano can become angry. so good luck to you all!
  
  
• From: MS (@ 129.252.25.204) on: Mon Oct 22 00:29:48 EDT 2001
  
  Bharath:
  
  "IR has slogged his backside off an a movie which lacked pathetically in script and screenplay."
  
  Nope - It had a good screenplay.
  
  
• From: MS (@ 129.252.25.204) on: Mon Oct 22 00:33:58 EDT 2001
  
  whoever @ 132.235.17.37
  
  Some stmts are unwarranted. I do not elevate any composer's banal song to heights because of pre-set bias. Hindustani feel ? hmmm..I don't find any. Let it be done by whoever sire, if it is unimpressive it will still be.
  
  
• From: yaaro (@ 195.93.34.186) on: Mon Oct 22 01:16:38 EDT 2001
  
  rf, stillrf,musicforpeace,
  i was not bothered till i saw your postings in raajangahm-i am not a policeman or a moderator.literally,i just could not beleive my eyes!
  I am not an insecure fan-i do agree with the sentiments(atleast some of them)
  FYI, I have seen lagaan as well-good songs,coming from ARR-good bgm.but making blanket statements like//A period film should have the type of music ARR created for Lagaan// and going to make statements like as if lagaan is the benchmark for these type of films-konjam over.and to cap it all ,you are suggesting that marudanayagam should be done a la lagaan-well here we are arguing about a film which is still in conception!
  
  
• From: velramanan (@ 202.88.154.169) on: Mon Oct 22 01:44:12 EDT 2001
  
  Here are a few opinions of "learned people in carnatic" like semmangudi, WCM conductors (LARY BAIN,ZUBIN MEHTA, a top class singer (Hariharan) and ordinary people (no offence meant) like Bharathiraja, R.V.Udhayakumar,you and me (aren't we all just ordinary listeners)" on the genius phenomenon called ilaiyaraja.
  
  (By the way, who is rf that this thread is referring to....guess he should be a top class music critic of the 21st century....boy, he should be something...imagine, to analyse lagaan, siraichalai and Hey Ram...well)
  
  SEMANGUDI SRINIVASA AYYAR - " Raja has that unique gift to please common man and carnatic experts alike.Until recently, I knew that Shri Ilayaraaja is a great film music director - his expertise in diluting Carnatic Ragas without diluting their native merits, is well known to me - but recently I had the oppurtunity to listen to him sing a few kirthanas - he sang a kirthana in Raag Abhogi - very well rendered - in Carnatic Sangeet, one needs to know the Sahityam - without knowing it, one should not sing it making it sound absurd - Isai gyani Shri.Ilayaraaja sang it very beautifully and his grasp of the Sahityam is commendable. After today, I realise that Shri.Ilayaraaja is a thorough expert in Carnatic music. May the God Almighty bless Isai Gyani with a long life so that he can render a long service to music "
  
  LARY BAIN( England Based Composer)-"He is unbelievable, genius and fantastic"
  
  LALGUDI JAYARAMAN - " His talent is not the fruit of one single birth's efforts. This level of achievement is only possible to one who has lived with music for countless births. The speed with which he writes notations have always baffled me "
  
  Dr.BALAMURALIKRISHNA -" As far as i am concerned, i would say Ilaiyaraja is the composer of the century. If there is one single authority on 'orchestration' it can only be ilaiyaraja.
  
  K.J.YESUDASS - "There is infinite music forms that is hidden in this man's heart. All that should flow-out for the good of mankind."
  
  VAALI (South Indian Lyricist/Poet) - " Reethigowlai, Hamsanatham, Bilahari etc are some of the ragas that he has deftly handled for film music. He is not isaignani, he is swaragnani."
  
  ZUBIN MEHTA Music Conductor,( Israel Philharmonic)- " I was bewildered after listening to his 'nothing but wind' and 'how to name it'. He belongs to the 21st century and perhaps beyond."
  
  DIRECTOR BHARATHIRAAJA - " I shoot scenes with a particular impact in mind. And even before i discuss about what i have in mind, he is already ready with mind boggling BGM bits.( In that programme Bharathiraaja explained about special 'mudhal mariyaathai' film scenes with wide eyes and astonishment)"
  
  DIRECTOR R.V.UDAIYAKUMAR - "He was writing the background score for Chinna Kounder. In a particular scene i had made a very glaring error in designing the flow of shots. He asked me why i was a bit moody. I said i have made a mistake in choosing the shots. He simply said - I just now corrected your mistake with the BGM. Listen to this !!"
  
  DIRECTOR MANIRATNAM - "Illaiyaraja is absolutely prolific. He is an amazing talent who believes that the music written down by him should be stuck to totally. And then it is recorded which is just a matter of execution. I wish I could be like Ilaiyaraja and work out everything on paper."
  
  JOSEPH EAGER, Conductor, World Symphony Orchestra -"His music will be heard through the twenty-first century" predicted at a function to release the CD of his album Nothing But Wind in New York in 1988.
  
  VICTOR RANGEL RIBEIRO, a well-known musicologist and author of Baroque Music - "Your ears will hear music like they never heard before"
  
  STEPHEN DAVIS of New Age - "He is leading us to a very special world of music appreciation and has opened doors of new horizons of new age music"
  
  Prof. SHERYAR OOKERJEE, a Bombay based musicologist writes,"Bach's influence is deep and all pervasive in his music. He is adept at using conventional western harmony and standard western techniques. Uses dialogue and imitation extensively. He has a competent grasp of the orchestra. His conspicuous quality is his ability to so integrate the Indian and western idioms that the seams can hardly be noticed and the result is usually pleasant, charming and satisfying. Ilaiyaraaja's music is enjoyable and worth taking very seriously. It grows on one with repeated hearings".
  
  DIRECTOR, ACTOR PAARTHIBAN - " Isai alias raja, raja alias isai."
  
  DIRECTOR, ACTOR KAMALHAASAN - ",Ilaiyaraja should be honored as Isai Vigyani (musical scientist) rather than Isai gyani.He has explored and analyzed virtually every type of music.I have worked with several composers. But this man is on his own trip - he is a colossal talent. We have worked together in around 70 films and we know each other's requirements and expectations very well. He saw the rushes of the film (Hey Ram!) just once and immediately decided the music to be scored for the song sequences that have already been picturised. I told my film crew to give me a week's time and that I will come back with one song in that time - instead I came back with seven songs."
  
  HARIHARAN, Playback Singer,"Ilaiyaraja's style is very different. He has been heavily influenced by the classical compositions of Mozart and Bach."
  
  LASLOV KOVACH, Conductor, (Budapest Symphony Orchestra, Hungary) - ," He is Hollywood Kind."
  
  RAJKUMAR SANTOSHI, Director (on Lajja's Background music by Maestro Ilayaraaja) - ,"The discipline of the 90 musicians, the conductor and the recording engineers of the Budapest Symphony Orchestra in Hungary was overwhelming. The musicians gave a standing ovation after recording the scores."
  
  MARK LAYCOCK, (Director of Orchestral Activities, Iowa State University, Iowa, United States of America),"A fascinating blend of Eastern and Western styles. The music is instantly appealing -- rhythmically, harmonically, formally. The use of traditional Indian instruments in a modern musical context makes for a rich palette of tone colors and creates a wide range of expressive possibilities."
  
  NAUSHAD ALI (doyen of hindi film music)- ,"That this man has achieved is 100 times more than what any of us have achieved; only time can tell the quantum of his achievements."
  
  HARIPRASAD CHAURASIA, (exponent of Hindustani Classical Music) - ," It is a treat watching him (Mr.Ilayaraaja) work - he does everything, composing, arrangement of instruments, orchestration and conducting - that too without the help of any assistants and a stopwatch."
  
  L.SUBRAMANIAM (Violin Maestro)-,"Ilayaraaja is as good as any composer in the world."
  
  
  ["knock knock knock"...is rf still around or has he hung himself.]
  
  
• From: eden (@ 210.214.4.1) on: Mon Oct 22 01:47:43 EDT 2001
  
  siraichAlai (kAlApAni) is basically a Malayalam movie remade (or simulataneously made?) into other languages. If one follows MY movies (& music) regularly, they'll be able to appreciate the score. I personally rate `mArikkoottinnuLLil' as one of the greatest songs in the recent times in IFM (the song was a big hit in Kerala too)...I don't think it was created with main focus for TF audience (or HF audience). The BGM was excellent too, though I found the movie a little bit dragging (even with the kootum kuzhal vizhi song already cut off). Overall an emotional score (check the interludes of vandhE mAtharam).
  
  [Guru songs are superior to kAlApAni, IMHO (except `minnAram mAnaththu' which is less enchanting than `mArikkoottinnuLLil'.) `aruNa kiraNa' is easily one of the BEST EVER scores by IR!!! I know I'm digressing here, but some have referred to the score on this thread]
  
  rf, of late it appears that you are hell bent on starting some flamy threads. If your intention is both to glorify ARR & trash IR, why don't you pick the BGM of a TF of ARR and compare? Or is there a dubbed version of lagAn available in Thamizh? Otherwise, technically it need not be discussed in TFM-DF, except in `TFM artists in other languages' thread:-))
  
  

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