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Everything you always wanted to talk about ARR vs. IR but were afraid..

Topic started by rajaG (@ daecfp01.sprint.com) on Wed Aug 18 17:12:52 EDT 1999.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Too many posters are using other topics to discuss/slam/comment/praise IR/ARR that I thought we could use this one thread as a catch all for all those posts. Welcome guys!!!

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: chandy (@ 209.125.83.170) on: Wed Sep 1 23:06:47 EDT 1999
  
  Whys is that we have to wait for "one new thing every day" about IR? Isnt it that it takes time to think, think and think of what 10 new things IR did???
  
  
  
• From: SRK (@ icache-3.doit.wisc.edu) on: Thu Sep 2 09:23:49 EDT 1999
  
  First, I think we should put in perspective what things any MD CAN have done when he/she came immediately after MSV, as MSV seems to have done exclusive coverage of areas. Then let us look at IR's work in this light.
  
  I agree with one of the earlier postings that the musical differences between MSV and IR are beyond the level of objectivity - it is purely subjective.
  
  
• From: Swami (@ proxy2.ericy.com) on: Thu Sep 2 10:58:30 EDT 1999
  
  Mr.Vijay,
  Naan solla ninaithatha thappa purichindurukeenga.
  What I meant was, the perspective with which one can see/feel/hear/taste/smell the five senses will vary from one person to another. Just because U like "sambar saadham" and however good it might be, however well it might be appreciated, you cannot force a person, who just hates it, to eat it. Its just the same with music. If Mr.Srikanth says' IR has done something phenomenal in BGM, that doesn't mean that it becomes a fact to "EVERYONE". You might like it, in fact I accept the fact. But say Mr.ABC, might not accept it. Because BGM is not the thing that he expects. So quoting again, facts to me and you, might be crap to another person. I feel what Mr.Srikanth lists should be "10 new things done by IR in TFM as perceived by Srikanth" and do not brand it as thoughts of the whole DF.
  
  Mr.Srikanth, no offences, but konjam nenachu parrunga. If all the minds work and like alike, then there would be no variety in life. After all "Variety is the spice of life", so whatever U list, I (or maybe some in this forum) might accept . But I might even reject u'r views. But go ahead and register your 10 views. i would love to see that.
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 129.252.25.76) on: Thu Sep 2 12:24:38 EDT 1999
  
  Swami,
  If the sun sets in the west for me, it won't set in the east for others!! I dont understand how u can say that facts for me would be crap for others. Facts for me is facts for everyone!!
  
  The question is whether u are interested in those facts or not! If one thinks that these facts are crap then one is ignorant of what's going on and does not wish to accept things with an open mind.
  
  That IR did something new in BGM is not perceived by srikanth but rather is a fact(according to him, although it might be proved wrong). Srikanth has said this based on his knowledge of the music composed by IR's predecessors! It is not that he felt that IR has done something new but rather his observations are based on strong technical points which cannot be ignored.
  
  
• From: Swami (@ proxy2.ericy.com) on: Thu Sep 2 12:57:52 EDT 1999
  
  Facts for me is facts for everyone!
  
  Absolutely not possible Mr.Vijay. Ok forget the sun rising/settin example. Its a natural phenomenon. But let's talk things happening in life. If u had seen the posting in this topic for the past one week, there were conflicting ideas. If i come up with something Mr.Srikanth, would come up with a quote saying its old. So it was a fact to me and it was not to him. So was the case with the points and facts stated by Mr.Srinath, Mr.arul.......So never ever try to jump to conclusions about what others think and conceive.
  
  The question is whether u are interested in those facts or not! If one thinks that these facts are crap then one is ignorant of what's going on and does not wish to accept things with an open mind.
  
  Try not to jump into hasty conclusions again. I made a generic statement that all facts by Mr.Srikanth, might not be acceptable to me. (But I said I accept this BGM point). How can you accuse a person to be 'ignorant' just because he's not accepting 'your' fact. Wouldn't that be eccentric?
  So never ever question about personal tastes.
  
  
• From: kiru (@ surf0004.sybase.com) on: Thu Sep 2 14:44:21 EDT 1999
  
  Srikanth,
  Let me see your technical review of IR's work. Then I can argue "why we have not seen anybody like IR in TFM". I need to know my opponents strength !! :-)
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 129.252.25.76) on: Thu Sep 2 14:56:10 EDT 1999
  
  Swami,
  Again and again u are asking the same question. I repeat it is not Srikanth's fact it IS a fact, unless otherwise it is proved otherwise. if i say IR has composed a song in raaga vasantha and if it happens to be true, can u say 'no, according to me it is bhairavi'. if it is vasantha then it is vasantha, period. I dont understand your arguments.
  
  If srikanth says that IR is not the greatest MD then that might be his OPINION and u can either agree or disagree with him. u are confusing facts with opinions.
  
  When the same srikanth says that IR is not great he is merely expressing his opinion, but when he says that IR has composed certain movements in BGMs he might be stating facts which u and me are probably not aware of. Hope iam clear enough;))
  
  if not, God help us;))
  
  
• From: kiru (@ surf0004.sybase.com) on: Thu Sep 2 14:56:48 EDT 1999
  
  BTW, re: dappAnguththu and classical music. I dont think classifying one as appealing to 'heart/emotion' and the other to 'brain/intellect' holds scientific water (Sorry
  rajaG). Lots of well-meaning individuals seem to hold this opinion. But so far I cannot convince myself that this is scientific. Both are forms of music. Actually very
  similiar but varying only in 'complexity' and/or nuances. The fact that you can set a dappAnguththu in a specific rAgam should say something. dappAnguththus may
  not have that much 'gamakkams' and/or set to complex 'thAlams'. Thats the only difference I can see so far. The lyrics and language are a totally different matter.
  You see we need to find an answer why music produces joy in human beings. So far my research says - mind does pattern-recognising. Pattern-recognition is the
  basis of intelligence. Without intelligence there is no concept of happiness or sadness (non-sentient). Listening to music is a form of pattern recognition. Mind
  interprets as joy when a pattern in the notes are recognised. The beats are another cue which adds another dimension to this activity. Classical music will have more
  complex patterns which makes it more joyful. To put it crudely take the score written for a pop style song (say from ARR :-)). Compare this with something done
  more classically (say IR :-)) the number of pages of score would be more for the classical version. (this paragraph is a bait for Srikanth :-)) So it all depends how
  much you want to bother your brain to be happy !!!
  
  
• From: Srinath (@ mail.startec.net) on: Thu Sep 2 15:19:09 EDT 1999
  
  the number of pages of score would be more for the classical version
  
  Wrong Kiru, you didn't take into account the "breathing spaces" in ARR's music ;-) That should account for atleast 10-15 blank pages inbetween ;-)
  
  
• From: Srikanth (@ proxy2-external.moline1.il.home.com) on: Thu Sep 2 20:03:31 EDT 1999
  
  Enamo ponga, I really tried to find some good movements in Raja's score. eg:Nayagan rerecording, Poove sempoova has good movements, the mood changes very well. it has all things required for a movement.
  BB: and others
  One more issue here is you cannot compare Bachs or mozarts movements, these western composers did not have any south indian listeners.
  The flavor is different, A Chinees dish made by an american is differnt from Indian, though they follow the same cook book. The Indian cook needs to cater to the locals. Thats what raja did.
  He used south Indian classical music in the form of WC, meaning South Indian classical music is mono tone, where us WC is polyphonic and has harmonies.
  Let us take our good old HTNI. I still remember long time ago Raja making a speech in Madras Philharmoic socity (I think or one of the WC foundation in madras) told he wanted to take a carnatic krithi (here it is Thulasi dala) and try a WC arrangement. Which he did it well. Gave wonderful movements to it.
  Later he requested other composers to come up with similar stuff, till date (except MSV & Maharajaa puram santhanam) no one has done such thing, frankly if anyone has heard my album, I tried enna thavam seithani the way raja told. It came up pretty well, But I did it more of Pop.
  btw;I used it for a fashion show.
  
  There are western groups like shakthi etc, who have thier own compositions but never took a real time carnatic number.
  
  
• From: Mukund (@ sd-ppp-214.abac.net) on: Fri Sep 3 05:46:10 EDT 1999
  
  Hi guys,
  
  I had beleived from the start that this exercise of 10 things is one in futility. This website has undergone quite a change from the days when some segment of visitors seemed to complain that it was so biased towards Ilayaraaja. Nowadays it is like, if you talk anything good about Ilayaraaja it does not belong here. It is a taboo.!!
  
  That is not Balance as I see it and if I remember right, Srikanth had argued on quite a number of threads in order to lend a balance he thought that was lacking those days.
  
  Now I want to restore balance too.
  
  I am going to list what I feel sincerely were new things introduced by Ilayaraaja as many as I can identify. This will not round up to 10 totally as I think it was the number that came to Srikanth's mind just at the spur of the moment and so I feel there is no credence to 10 in particular.
  
  Here it goes.
  
  BTW, these are my statements. I am not going to discuss any of these any more.
  
  1. Seamless mix of Western Classical, Carnatic music, folk styles and emotion. I don't want to run up a lot of examples to support my viewpoint as I have done so many times. (Srikanth seems to come up with song "Vanakkam Palamurai" for explanation of any technicality, anyone has ever seen in TFM :-))
  
  One example: Maanguyile - I guess everyone agrees it is a folk song - Kanaka will start searching for Towser paandi as he is hidden in the crowd and starts looking for him. Listen to the piece.
  
  Ok anyway, 2nd example: Starting of "Nilavathaan naan Kaiyile pidichen, Ithu oru pon maalai, Paruvamae, Sevvanthi poo mudicha chinnakkaa, Kovial mani osai thannai etc. That better be enough.
  
  2. I know for IR music fans' just the 1st point would have taken their minds thru a whole gamut of songs that we have all been rejoicing with for last 20 years.
  
  Here is the 2)
  Orchestration: I have again so many songs to write here for this but my point is this: If GR could be credited for pure melodious songs based on "pure" raagas and MSV can be credited for pure melody by expanding the scope of the raagas then IR can be credited for melody and harmony built on top of orchestration.
  
  3. To Lighten the raagas and expand the scope
  for orchestration.
  
  This is I feel one of major focus of IR and my pet subject. Raaja is such a great pioneer in this I feel. He has brought in a whole range of possibilities and changes such that it puts pressure on getting clearer definition of how one defines a song's element.
  
  Let me explain this. GR's case - Compose a melodious song on a raaga - So raaga pretty much defines the most part of the song. (traditional lyrics)
  MSV's case - Create a melodious song by taking a raaga and looking at it differently than what goes on traditionally with it in Carnatic circles (with emphasis on good lyrics that also impact the mind of the listener) (Srikanth, There are thousand other elements in MSV's songs no doubt but this is the general overview)
  In IR's case - you don't stick to the strict definitions of a raaga (except in his classical based songs) and lighten it up so much that you end up with swaras and one's own imagination (IR's that too) to get a great song out of that. Now since you cannot call it as a song on some raaga (just based on that scale), BUT still you have a great melodious, harmonious song out of that, what do you define that to be. A Non RAAGA song ????. That is what I mean by something new. Calling for additional definition. Things get a little more unclear when graha bedham comes into picture (Now you have the possibility of calling it as based on >2 raagas. You don't have answers for this. You only have a good song)
  
  4. Interludes. Enough has been said in thousands of threads on this. No reasoning for this. Thats it.
  
  5. BGM. """"""""""""""""""""""""""""""
  
  6. Impact. I feel the least impacted emotionally by ARR's songs. I have felt overwhelming sense of emotions with MSV's. But emotional impact created by harmony of Carnatic, folk, and WC is so different and immense I presonally find IR's music most impacting.
  
  
  7. The 7th point that IR brought into TFM
  "Me to TFM page website" :-)
  
  Thanks
  Mukund
  
  
• From: kiru (@ surf0004.sybase.com) on: Fri Sep 3 14:03:34 EDT 1999
  
  Mukund,
  point # 3 is good and 'mAnguyilE' is a perfect example.
  
  The fact that IR is acknowledged as an expert in BGM (which connects emotions with music) should tell people how deep an understanding he has of music.
  
  (Srinath, ARR's singers need to go some laxative :-) :-))
  
  "Enamo ponga, I really tried to find some good movements in Raja's score."
  Srikanth, do you think an IR fan should feel offended now that you are having tough time finding a good movement ?? I should stop taking you seriously, I think :-(
  
  

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