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Everything you always wanted to talk about ARR vs. IR but were afraid..

Topic started by rajaG (@ daecfp01.sprint.com) on Wed Aug 18 17:12:52 EDT 1999.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Too many posters are using other topics to discuss/slam/comment/praise IR/ARR that I thought we could use this one thread as a catch all for all those posts. Welcome guys!!!

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: bb (@ schubert.crhc.uiuc.edu) on: Wed Sep 1 12:31:19 EDT 1999
  
  Kumar, i said "typically", not as a rule:) but sufficient time is required to explore the movement!
  
  
• From: aruLarasan (@ psiphi.umsl.edu) on: Wed Sep 1 12:47:58 EDT 1999
  
  but bb,
  
  movements have internal structures, length is irrelevant. ( i have heard symphonies which last only 8 or 9 minutes in length some french composer, forgot his name). i haven't listened to many (almost any) of his bgm pieces, but i wonder how much of "structures" exist in his bgms.
  
  shrikAnth,
  
  it's now obligatory on your part to explain what a movement is, how it is used by IR, etc... (at least after a day or two).
  
  
• From: SRK (@ icache-3.doit.wisc.edu) on: Wed Sep 1 15:04:20 EDT 1999
  
  bb: I agree with you. The longest BGM theme from IR would be perhaps two minutes long("My dear kuttichattan" seemed to have one or 2 longish ones). But I think Srikanth means something different when he talks about movements.
  
  arularasan: you're right - I think the shortest symphony is one of 17 minutes or so. In fact, I have a CD with one of Mozart's earlier symphonies and the whole thing is just about 20-25 minutes with each movement being around 4-5 minutes.
  
  
• From: SRK (@ icache-3.doit.wisc.edu) on: Wed Sep 1 15:29:43 EDT 1999
  
  I must add this: although I expect that composing a proper movement needs much more effort than Raja puts in composing bgm pieces, the best part of a movement is often just a minute or so - this applies to even Mozart and Beethoven.
  
  Examples of what I'm talking about are in the first movements of Mozart's famous 41st symphony where the whole charm ends in less than a minute, Mozart's Clarinet Concerto (the famous one, whatever its number) - in both cases, I felt that there was a strong short melody and the rest was a filler for time.
  
  
• From: Diwakar (@ 206.175.177.168) on: Wed Sep 1 15:49:49 EDT 1999
  
  While admitting that it is good to know about the 10 new things that IR has done for TFM, are we missing the woods for the trees? I mean, if we are going to restrict ourselves to the "perfect 10", are we not guilty of having a 10 degree tunnel vision at the expense of the 350 degree peripheral vision?
  
  Music pleases all the senses. Some are tangible and, again, some are not. Liking a composer's music - and perhaps radically, swearing by it - is no crime. To put in a crude analogy, some have Muruga as Ishta Devatha and some others Krishna. I am fairly certain that most of us - definitely not me - have not seen either of the two in person. But the faith, the devotion and the belief pleases our senses. If one were to list out the 10 things that Muruga has done new over Krishna or vice-versa, it is now mean task. I am definitely not elevating the MDs to God status. It is merely an effort to clarify what I feel and mean.
  
  For the good of TFM, it is better we focus on the music and not on the personalities. If we can - without a limit on the number - list out the novelties, the nuances and the achievements of the different MDs/Artistes/Lyricists, it will be a boon. Alternatively, we can continue our emphasis on personalities and keep going around in circles.
  
  Please understand that it is not a critique on any one DFer. I have learnt a lot from this forum and I would like it to continue without the slightest hint of acrimony.
  
  Cheers!
  
  
• From: bb (@ ts001d26.cha-il.concentric.net) on: Wed Sep 1 17:09:52 EDT 1999
  
  If we can - without a limit on the number - list out the novelties, the nuances and the achievements of the different MDs/Artistes/Lyricists, it will be a boon
  diwakar, some of these threads might interest u..
  http://newtfmpage.com/forum/21210.11:15:33.html
  http://newtfmpage.com/forum/14310.04.57.26.html
  http://newtfmpage.com/forum/137.19:53:29.html
  http://newtfmpage.com/forum/13154.17.54.59.html
  
  
• From: Swami (@ proxy2.ericy.com) on: Wed Sep 1 18:15:58 EDT 1999
  
  Mr.Divakar,
  Itha thaan naan munnadiye sonnen. see my earlier posting below,
  
  
  Till to date one thing I look for while listening to a song for the first time is, how much of impact it makes on me. That is, does it make me hum the song at the first instance and make me listen to it again & again. Then after that I look for the progressions in that song. This is how I analyze and dissect a song. I'm pretty sure each
  person in this forum will his/her own way of approach to a song.
  
  So if i lsiten to something new for the first time I feel that it is an innovation (maybe someone might have listened to it earlier). So I feel, from the past many years, each stage of IR's music updated my database :). They may not be new to all, but atleast new to me. So Mr.Srikanth, new to me might be old to you. The same reasoning hold good for each and every person in this forum. Your 10 new list might be old to me, as you think
  whatever we say is not that u expect. "Innovation lies in the ears of the listener".
  
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 129.252.25.76) on: Wed Sep 1 19:13:07 EDT 1999
  
  Swami,
  Listing out 10 new things that IR did to TFM might or might not increase the appreciation of his music by his fans. But it is anyday good to really know better about your idol. I agree that each person can experience a different kind of emotion when listening to a song but what srikanth is attempting to list here are according to him facts.
  
  If indeed no one has composed BGM before like the way IR has done with movements, it is indeed something new and u cannot ignore it just because u have'nt noticed it;))
  
  Now, u might not give a damn about all these things and might still be able to appreciate his music irrespective of the innovative technical aspects that IR had introduced, Iam not saying no.
  In that case treat these points as mere factual details which u can atleast use for boasting to your friends who might happen to be MSV or ARR fans;))
  
  
  Srikanth,
  waiting to hear your remaining points.
  
  
• From: kiru (@ surf0004.sybase.com) on: Wed Sep 1 20:13:08 EDT 1999
  
  Re: 'movement'. It is a general term. It can be used to refer to an 'AlApanai' for instance. It is just a segment of music with a common theme. As somebody pointed the 'root melody' may be very short. But you should be able to recognise a movement hearing any reasonable length section of it.
  
  As Diwakar mentioned, we seem to be missing the woods for the trees. IR is a master at WCM. I dont think we have seen anybody like him in TFM history so far.
  
  MSV was a good melody maker. He also was setting songs (from good lyricists) to tunes. Some think this could have been the reason for 'good songs' in sum total.
  
  Music is like poetry. Just because you follow grammar does not mean you have not done anything new. Actually, IR might have created some new 'structure' in TFM but I am not that musically savvy to prove this. But I can tell his counterpoints being in following combinations WCM-ICM, ICM-ICM, WCM-WCM (and still sounding Indian at times).
  
  One sign of genius is 'volume of output'. IR has enough of this. I dont think there is anything wrong in people waxing eloquent over his music.
  
  I get the impression that Srikanth is just getting worked up for no reason. (Srikanth, do you drink beer ?? :-)) Somebody get him a Guinness :-)
  
  
• From: Srikanth (@ proxy1-external.moline1.il.home.com) on: Wed Sep 1 20:25:37 EDT 1999
  
  Diwar; your arugment might be for a religion. Music is not a religion. I just posted one point--we see many opinions.
  "are we not guilty of having a 10 degree tunnel vision at the expense of the 350 degree peripheral vision? "
  -- then why do we start threads like gems of raja and what not of raja or anybody for that matter. There are plenty of stars in sky, but we just talk about few of them and be happy about it.
  This is somewhat similar. Frankly I like to see what raja has done to tfm.
  
  "I dont think we have seen anybody like him in TFM history so far. "
  
  Why did we come to a conclusion ?
  
  
• From: Srikanth (@ proxy1-external.moline1.il.home.com) on: Wed Sep 1 20:26:04 EDT 1999
  
  Diwar; your arugment might be for a religion. Music is not a religion. I just posted one point--we see many opinions.
  "are we not guilty of having a 10 degree tunnel vision at the expense of the 350 degree peripheral vision? "
  -- then why do we start threads like gems of raja and what not of raja or anybody for that matter. There are plenty of stars in sky, but we just talk about few of them and be happy about it.
  This is somewhat similar. Frankly I like to see what raja has done to tfm.
  
  "I dont think we have seen anybody like him in TFM history so far. "
  
  Why this conclusion ?.
  
  
• From: Diwakar (@ 206.175.177.168) on: Wed Sep 1 20:40:37 EDT 1999
  
  Srikanth, I got the gist of your post the first time itself :-).
  
  If you have read my post, I have said that the analogy is crude. Of course, for some music is a religion :-)
  
  "I dont think we have seen anybody like him in TFM history so far. " - is not part of my posting. And I had made it amply clear that this was not against any one DFer. Anyone is entitled to one's own conclusion. The operative phrase in the quoted sentence is "I dont think". Even though you are against comparing religion and music, it is a given that forcing one's views on others is bad in both cases. I am sure that you will agree with me.
  
  Starting threads like the ones you have mentioned is fine. But my point was that it is imperative that we focus on the music than on the musician. If the purpose of your thread is to talk about IR's music and its innovativeness ( or the lack of it in some people's opinion ), it is welcomed. If it is only to criticise IR and say that there are no more than 10 new things that he has done in TFM, it is to be pilloried.
  
  It would be more harmonious for all concerned if you were to list out the 10 new things that IR has done for TFM and let people discuss and talk about it - to prune the list, to add to it or to learn from it.
  
  Waiting ....
  
  
• From: Diwakar (@ 206.175.177.168) on: Wed Sep 1 20:42:45 EDT 1999
  
  Please read "If the purpose of your post is " for "If the purpose of your thread is "
  
  

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