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Everything you always wanted to talk about ARR vs. IR but were afraid..

Topic started by rajaG (@ daecfp01.sprint.com) on Wed Aug 18 17:12:52 EDT 1999.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Too many posters are using other topics to discuss/slam/comment/praise IR/ARR that I thought we could use this one thread as a catch all for all those posts. Welcome guys!!!

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: Srikanth (@ proxy2-external.moline1.il.home.com) on: Tue Aug 31 13:18:06 EDT 1999
  
  Illango:
  
  "Another thing. You said (I assume in all seriousness) that IRaja's voice suits only Janakaraj. Have you heard the songs from En Raasavin Manasile? Raja sings for Raj Kiran. "
  ---- Frankly I do not remember saying this
  
  also i do not see anything offending in the reply i gave to srinath.
  
  
  
• From: rajaG (@ daecfp01.sprint.com) on: Tue Aug 31 13:27:30 EDT 1999
  
  Anand,
  
  I am really puzzled by your post. The gist of your comments are pretty much the same as what I had written earlier, and yet you are taking exception to my post as if I had written something objectionable. Where did I mention that one should not enjoy dappaanguththu? Where did I say that Carnataic music is superior to other forms of music? If you are making a general accusation against people who make such claims, then DO NOT address it to me.
  
  Regarding my $103 and $301,000 example, I think it captures the essence of my point aptly, if I say so myself. Please go through the forum and read all the ridiculous posts like "ARR/IR/MSV has copied from ABC to get XYZ" when the similarity is mostly/only in the raaga that is being used. A raaga is a combination. A song based on the raaga is a permutation of that combination. The skill of the composer lies in coming up with a desired and yet different permutation, subject to the definition of the combination. When the permutations are (virtually) the same it is a copy (Ask Deva for explanantions and examples). When the permutations are different it is NOT a copy, merely because it evokes a sense of recognition in the minds of the listener. 103 and 301000 are two numbers with identical combination (excluding repeats of course) but with different permutation.
  
  I honestly did not feel that anyone would require such a detailed explanation of my point. I guess you proved me wrong. I request, please read my earlier post in detail and let me know where you disagree. Trust me. I have faith in MS, AruL, Srikanth, Srinath, Chandy to name a few. If I had written anything contrary to their beliefs or objectionable, I would have heard from them before you.
  
  P.S. The longest arguments take place when both parties are saying the same thing.
  
  
• From: Ilango (@ 199.102.39.65) on: Tue Aug 31 13:49:41 EDT 1999
  
  Srikanth:
  
  Srinath wrote a nice piece comparing IR, MSV and ARR.
  
  In response, in a matter of 7 to 8 lines you:
  1. Accuse him of cursing (??) other musicians. HE NEVER DID.
  2. Accuse him of a statement in poor taste. (debatable, though I agree with his statement)
  3. Accuse him of penathufying and making a crazy claim.
  
  He said:
  "MSV obviously didn't have enough knowledge of WCM to use it as well or as extensively as IR did"
  You said:
  "Theriyadha penatakudathu... So if you know WC are you considered great. What a crazy claim."
  
  WHOSE CLAIM IS CRAZY??!!
  
  On top of it, you blithely say you dont see anything offensive in your reply.
  
  Unless there are 2 Srikanths at work here, I dunno what to make of you man....
  
  Ilango
  
  
• From: aruLarasan (@ psiphi.umsl.edu) on: Tue Aug 31 13:49:59 EDT 1999
  
  rAjAji,
  
  i am going to start a LONG argument about your P.S (it might end up becoming a B.S, but that's besides the point :-) and let's not argue about this!!).
  
  
• From: Srinath (@ mail.startec.net) on: Tue Aug 31 18:10:15 EDT 1999
  
  Inga parallel-la oru naalu sanda nadukkum polrukku :-) Ilango, thanks for the compliments man :-) But I really did not take offence at Srikanth's post :-) After all, I too ridiculed him and my own post was replete with sarcasm :-) Anyway, I felt bad seeing all my fellow IR fans being ridiculed by Srikanth so mercilessly :-) and that's why I ventured my comments in a thread that I have been studiously avoiding all this while ! Believe me, whatever I may say, I always try to take these arguments in a light sense ! So NOM meant to anyone (not even to Mr.K ;-)) !
  
  
• From: Kooththan (@ dhcp-css-consult-12.redbrick.com) on: Tue Aug 31 21:37:59 EDT 1999
  
  Karthi,P.S - Post script not PSusheelan ;-)
  
  
• From: Kooththan (@ dhcp-css-consult-12.redbrick.com) on: Tue Aug 31 21:38:19 EDT 1999
  
  Karthi,P.S - Post script not PSusheela ;-)
  
  
• From: Madhan (@ 202.41.117.62) on: Wed Sep 1 00:26:01 EDT 1999
  
  
  "Sanda Bajaaru, maama konjam ushaaru "
  
  appadeenu Pillaiyaar suzhi pottuvittu post seiyyavum ...
  
  Srikanth, migavum nondhu poi vittaen , unga postings parthhu - not only because of the contents - but because of the way in which you are proving more and more to be a real comic,funny character !! No offences please !!
  
  Srinath asked (requested ) you to list the 10 new things that IR has done to TFM (or IFM) - instead of coming up with a relvant answer , you are calling Srinath as 'paenaathhu'fying !!
  
  This reminds me of Nawaf Sharief accusing India for shooting down a Pakistan Air Force Plane, when it was supposed to have been "harmlessly making a surveillance of the Gujarat area", while actually, the plane was intimidatingly provoking our defense lines -
  
  Srikanth's (by now) deflated ego is the Pakistan Air Force plane and Srinath is the Indian Air Force pilot who shot it down !!
  
  But still, Nawaf Sherief goes on claiming that Srinath had no right in shooting his "ego" down ,
  
  sorry, should I say, the Indian Air Force had no right in shooting his blatantly misplaced , shortsighted "views on IR" down,
  
  sorry yet again, should I say, Srinath had no right in shooting down the Pakistan Air Force plane ...
  
  Dear me, Srikanth, I am getting to be as confused as you are - I am trying not to - but you are spreading this 'disease' fast man !
  
  
  
  
  
• From: Srikanth (@ proxy1-external.moline1.il.home.com) on: Wed Sep 1 07:26:46 EDT 1999
  
  Madan;
  Very funny,
  "Srinath asked (requested ) you to list the 10 new things that IR has done to TFM (or IFM) - instead of coming up with a relvant answer "
  --- Na keta questionai thripi enkite keta epadi.
  
  Dam! post 10 things you know raja did new to tfm.
  why dont you guys list out the 10 things instead of making a fun of me.
  Basically we saw great postings like.
  spb grew up bcos of raja,
  person is great if he knows WC music.
  dapankuthu ilakiyams.
  All I want is 10 new things raja did musically to tfm. Instead of fighting with me or making fun of me, why dont someone come up good points.
  
  
  
• From: Srinath (@ mail.startec.net) on: Wed Sep 1 08:48:57 EDT 1999
  
  spb grew up bcos of raja
  
  I never said that. But it is still a fact that SPB would not have been half as popular with MSV because MSV's kind of songs would not have suited SPB as well as IR's did. Similarly, with ARR, VS, Sirpi et al, even Mano and Udit Narayan are proving more successful than SPB. Therefore, IR did have a major role to play in SPB's career. Sorry, if you have a problem accepting that ! It's the truth !
  
  person is great if he knows WC music
  
  - was in fact a cruelly twisted version of what I said !!! :-) Srikanth, you are formally trained, please tell me how easy it is to become a WCM expert like IR. I am not even considering IR's background here ! But if being an expert in WCM is that easy, every Deva, Sirpi and Chandrabose would have composed a Symphony, instead of claiming that they have only "Kelvi Gnanam" :-)
  
  dapankuthu ilakiyams
  
  Athukkum MSV fans here came up saying that MSV is better at Dappanguththu :-) Appo mattum yengendhu vandhuthu indha ilakiyam elaam ?
  
  why dont you guys list out the 10 things instead of making a fun of me.
  
  You first admit that you are unable to come up with such a list. After all, nobody here, except you, claimed that they could do such a thing !!! Ungala pola knowledgeable personsaalye list pannamudiyalana, we are just laymen, how do you expect us to do it ? :-)
  
  
• From: Srikanth (@ proxy2-external.moline1.il.home.com) on: Wed Sep 1 09:03:46 EDT 1999
  
  Srinath; amithee..amithee..
  I did not say you told all the points.
  Madan posted something pakisthan india bla bla bla and made fun of me, i just replied.
  
  I just want IRFANS to be real fans rather than being worshippers (someone here will scream), hence this delay. Since the doubts is growing on this issue.
  
  One new thing per day.
  
  1. Raja introduced movements. Take WC, if a symphony is composed they are placed in different movements. Raja's bgm were mostly like these, same score were placed in differnt pace.
  -- for the mass this was generalized by saying great rerecording. This is one of the factor of BGM, I would say raja exploited it as much as he could.
  
  Now one of you guys come up with an example.
  
  
  
  
• From: Srinath (@ mail.startec.net) on: Wed Sep 1 09:31:41 EDT 1999
  
  Mouna Raagam BGM ?
  
  
• From: Kumar Sivachidambaram (@ sagramolapc.cc.bellcore.com) on: Wed Sep 1 09:51:32 EDT 1999
  
  Srikanth:
  
  By listing the 10 contributions of Illaiyaraja, you will only make matters worse. The Raja worshippers will end up dismissing all the other music composers of Tamil Film Music. To avoid this, I request you to list contributions of MSV too.
  
  
• From: bb (@ schubert.crhc.uiuc.edu) on: Wed Sep 1 11:55:56 EDT 1999
  
  srikanth, i don't agree that raja's BGMs can be considered as movements.. i don't seem to know any piece that long! (isn't a typical movement atleast 10-15 mins long, except for 5-6 min allegrettos? ).
  
  
• From: Mr.K (@ 206.139.13.152) on: Wed Sep 1 12:01:02 EDT 1999
  
  for a change counter (point)argument from BB.
  Great! Srikanth what is your answer.
  
  
• From: rajaG (@ daecfp01.sprint.com) on: Wed Sep 1 12:12:44 EDT 1999
  
  Srinath,
  
  SPB+IR combo was very good and mutually beneficial to both.idha iththOda vittudalaamEy? Analyzing SPB+MSV, SPB+IR, SPB+ARR, and SPB+Others calls for a separate thread. I am sure quite a few DFers would have a say on this topic (enna Sriram L. kEttundirukkELaa?).
  
  
• From: Kumar Sivachidambaram (@ sagramolapc.cc.bellcore.com) on: Wed Sep 1 12:13:34 EDT 1999
  
  BB:
  
  From what I have read, there is no rule in Western Classical music that talks about the duration of movements. It is up to composer.
  
  
  

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