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Raga of song please

Topic started by Gopal Prasad (@ greed.cs.umass.edu) on Sat May 17 07:42:45 EDT 1997.
All times in EDT +9:30 for IST.

Note: You may want to refer to the list of raga based film songs before posting a query.

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: Ramki (@ pm062-03.spindler.wmich.edu) on: Wed Jun 17 14:37:21 EDT 1998
  
  Geetha i was just asking for a flower but u have given me a garden:)thanks:)
  
  
  
• From: Ramaswamy Gireesan (@ m42.m59.big.ac.at) on: Wed Jun 17 14:59:55 EDT 1998
  
  Geetha,
  
  there is a Desh number by IR in my page.
  
  Regards
  
  G.Ramaswamy
  
  
• From: Geetha (@ gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk) on: Thu Jun 18 04:43:10 EDT 1998
  
  Ramaswamy: Thanks for that, again, let me commend you on a fantastic service to music lovers. You have so many excellent pieces that I missed in my childhood away from Sri Lanka. We recorded stuff off the radio in the olden days, but haven't been there in 13 years, since I was 10, so it's great to listen to this stuff when I'm most interested in it. My Father was also incredibly by your's and Hari's great work. Thanks you again.
  
  
• From: Geetha (@ gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk) on: Thu Jun 18 05:26:38 EDT 1998
  
  Here is Ramaswamy's DESH IR song:
  Song: gOpiyargaL engu uNdO
  Film: mallu vEtti minor Singer: Deepan Chakravarthy
  
  Take a look at his wonderful homepage on:
  http://www.m59.big.ac.at/~grama/links.html
  It gives lots of IR songs and those of other MD's, Semi-Classical and Normal.
  
  Actually, Ramaswamy Sir, are you thinking of putting any ARR Classical based songs like Margali Poove, Kannodu Kanbathellam, e.t.c?
  
  
• From: haris (@ 206.103.12.125) on: Thu Jun 18 08:50:46 EDT 1998
  
  Geetha,
  
  Getting back to you on the Raga Finding Machine(RFM) or Raga Identifying Machine(RIM), I have not come across one.
  One may not able to develop a m/c or s/w to do that(atleast i think so...)
  The major challenges may be...
  1. ragas whose Arohanam swarams are not in sequence.. eg. sgrmpns(nalinakAnti) (i do not know what is pentatonic).
  2. non absoluteness of Sa. I heard that we can't fix, say .. this frequency, X is for Sa, Y for Re and so on.. bcos, sometimes we can have Ri as Sa , Ga as Ri and so on and play the same raga(is this what is called tonal shift..??).
  3. When somebody plays a swara that is not of that raga(swara bEdham..).
  
  
• From: Ramaswamy Gireesan (@ m42.m59.big.ac.at) on: Thu Jun 18 09:45:14 EDT 1998
  
  Geetha,
  
  Thanks for your compliments. Sir ellAm vENdAm, nAn romba chinnap paiyyan :-)
  
  The fact is that I upload only those songs that appeal to _ME_ :-) Even some of the IR and MSV songs (which I have on cassette) have not been uploaded, simply because I dont like them. And since I am not a big fan of ARR or Deva, and there are many sites hosting their songs anyway, I have decided to do away with their compositions :-) As it is, I have no music of Deva in my cassette collection, a couple of ARR pieces (and very old ones at that). I am right now concentrating on collecting IR's classics, old hits (SPB, A.M.Raja, P.B.Srinivas etc.) As somebody else had mentioned in the thread 'Song classification and other technicalities' the attractive feature of my site is Classical Ilaiyaraja, and I dont want to dilute it too much.
  
  I might of course reconsider the above decision, if the situation warrants it (like mottai retiring, Deva bringing out a truly original composition, etc.) :-)
  
  Regarding the desh song in question : Hari mentioned that this song is not available in the cassette/CD as it was not intended to be. It is just played in the background when the credits/titles are shown. He recorded it from a video cassette (and hence the poor quality). Same also applies to the Saranga piece by MV, I think.
  
  Regards
  
  G.Ramaswamy
  
  
• From: Gokul (@ pgokul.netpath.net) on: Thu Jun 18 23:15:21 EDT 1998
  
  Deva bringing out a truly original composition...
  
  Enna Saar, Kindala...:-)
  
  
• From: S.Suresh (@ dwarpal.wipsys.soft.net) on: Fri Jun 19 02:02:14 EDT 1998
  
  Geetha,
  
  I have also wondered about "Nee Oru Kaadhal Sangeetham". In some TV program they told it was Tilak Kamod. In another program SPB was saying that same thing about a Telugu song. He was asking someone if it was based on Tilak Kamod or Desh. Somehow "Nee Oru Kaadhal" doesnt sound Desh to me. Similarly, in a TV program someone mentioned "Nila Kaaygirathu" to be Tilak Kamod. Does anyone know about Tilak Kamod? If so, please give some details.
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 129.252.27.248) on: Fri Jun 19 02:12:08 EDT 1998
  
  ramaswamy,
  u have a wonderful collection.expecting more of IR's classics.
  
  
• From: Sathiya Keerthi (@ synergy.nus.edu.sg) on: Fri Jun 19 02:42:25 EDT 1998
  
  Ramaswamy G:
  
  More corrections for your page:
  
  muththai thiru by TMS is a song from
  the movie, aruNagirinaadhar; MD: GR.
  
  thendral uRangiya pOdhum is sung by
  PS, not Jikki.
  
  vaadikkai maRandhadhum EnO is from the movie,
  'kalyaaNa parisu'.
  
  chinnappayalE chinnappayalE is from the
  movie, 'arasiLangkumari'; MD: SMS.
  
  
• From: Ramaswamy Gireesan (@ m42.m59.big.ac.at) on: Fri Jun 19 03:31:02 EDT 1998
  
  Sathiya,
  
  thanks for the corrections.
  
  G.Ramaswamy
  
  
• From: Sathiya Keerthi (@ panorama.nus.edu.sg) on: Fri Jun 19 03:38:35 EDT 1998
  
  A News-bit related to this thread...
  
  'Griffiths Road' in T.Nagar has been renamed as
  'Maharajapuram Santhanam Road' to honour the
  great Carnatic musician.
  
  
• From: Geetha (@ gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk) on: Fri Jun 19 05:54:42 EDT 1998
  
  S.Suresh: Thanks for this information, I shall go through my books this weekend to find out this information. I wish I has access to South Indian TV, you learn so much from it. I get to watch some videos of Singaporean and Malaysian TV, but that's about it.....Will get back to you on Monday.
  
  Sathya: Thanks for the snippet, he deserves an honour like that, I saw a 4 hour concert of his at the BV Bhavan UK and the whole audience was absolutely stunned, no one even ventured out of the hall.....What a Great musician.
  
  Vijay: What about Deva's Nalam Nalam Ariya Aaval(Kadhal Kottai)....was it truely original?, I couldn't think of anything it could be copied from....Any ideas? By the way, can someone pinpoint a ragam for this song, it has Sankarabarnam as main, but I'm sure there are accidentals....
  Hari Sir, what do you think? Thanks in advance.
  
  Haris: The challenges are indeed there, but, for simple ragams, the scales can be programmed and then, as long as an accurate version of the song is played on the virtual keyboard, an algorithm should be able to at least give a rough idea of the ragam, for example what Melakartha it comes from, however, unless the standard is set that C note is Sa, G is Pa.....this can go wrong, as transposed song ragas can be caught by ear mostly. Ragas like Mohanam & Suddha Saveri can be played on Black notes only (they are Pentatonic as they have 5 notes ascending and descending), but on white notes, the ragam is clearly identifyable. Nalinakanthi for example should be able to be identified by a machine, as the notes for the ragam on the keyboard are :
  S G R M P N S; S N P M G R S.....
  (Mela Sankarabarnam)
  C E D F G B C; C B G F E D C.....
  (Scale C Major)
  
  A pure Nalinakanthi film song in this Ragam, "Endhan Nenjil"(Kalaignan, IR) goes smoething like this......
  
  C E D F | E, D, C | C, G, D F E, |
  Endhan Nenjil| Nee Paadum| Thendral NeeThaana|
  sg rm | g, r, s | s, g, r, m, g, |
  
  C E D F | E, D, C | CC GG DD GFG E,|
  Ennum Ennum| Nee Paadum| Dhiru Dhiru Thillaana|
  sg rm | g, r, s | ss gg rr pmp g,|
  
  C E D F G G C B G | GBCED GCBGF |
  Isaiyin Swarangal | Neeya Aaaaa |
  s g r m, p p s n p,| pnsgr, psnpm,|
  High s High sgr (p norm) High s
  
  C E D F G G C B G | GBCED GCBGFEDC |
  Isaikum Kuyil Nee | thaana Aaaaaaaa |
  s g r m, p p s n p,| pnsgr, psnpmgrs,|
  High s High sgr (p norm) High s
  
  Back to Endhan Nenjil.....and it goes on.....
  Paniyil Nanayum Maargali Poove
  rmp; snp; mgrss n,r,s
  Ennai nee pirinthaal endhoru vaalve
  rmp; prsnp; mgrss n,r,s
  Ennakena piranthaval nee yaaaaaaa
  rmpn psnp mpr,gpmrsnpm
  
  e.t.c....I'm finding the Western notation hard to do and I don't rememember the song well enough by memory, but I guess you get the general gist.
  
  So, the above pattern can be established by an algorithm, segregating the notes the song has from all the notes available, however, it will give Nalinakanthi as a derivative of Sankarabarnam, without the SGRM, and come out as SRGMPNS SNPMGRS - Kedharam I think.....But if Nalinakanthi is actully in the database, it should give both the ragams....so, in the end, it's the human ear which will pick up the subtle difference. The song Pon Maalai Pozluthu will be shown as Kedharam.
  
  It ragams like Chala Nattai(Isai paadum nee by VJ), Sindhubairavhi, Kafi(both commonly used if film songs), Thilang, Jog(take two melakarthas - while Kambeera Natai will be OK), that are hard for an algorithm, as the paryogams aren't programmed, however, I hope, when voice recognition takes off, artificial intelligence software can have the ablity to recognise these.
  
  So, I think that this software will be quite useful for novices, as it will give them the basic grounding and also force them to play the notes on the keyboard.....It won't handle any nuances, paryogams, Swara bedham, vakra, varja, e.t.c. We have to try and get hold of it to see what exactly it does and perhaps how it does it. It's a bit like Autoroute, the best route.....Travelling salesman problem, neural nets....so many possible answers, Infinite raga combinations, e.t.c.....Lets see.
  
  
  
• From: Sankaran (@ webgate0.mot.com) on: Fri Jun 19 09:03:36 EDT 1998
  
  Geetha,
  I was browsing through the old responses of this thread where at one place you have listed down films songs set to sahana.I would suggest that you listen to a song in the Malayalam movie "Kaliyaattam" starting "Ennodu..".This song has been sung by a teacher at the Music Academy in Trivandrum and she got the state award for this song.It is an excellent composition and brings out the emotion of ekkam(longing) very well.
  
  
• From: Geetha (@ gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk) on: Fri Jun 19 09:34:51 EDT 1998
  
  Shankaran: Thanks for this. It's very hoar for me to get hold of Malayalam music here in the UK....Is it available on the net at all? I've still not heard Yathra Mozli and Guru for the same reason. Thanks again, I'll look for it.
  
  

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