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Everything you always wanted to talk about ARR vs. IR but were afraid..

Topic started by rajaG (@ daecfp01.sprint.com) on Wed Aug 18 17:12:52 EDT 1999.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Too many posters are using other topics to discuss/slam/comment/praise IR/ARR that I thought we could use this one thread as a catch all for all those posts. Welcome guys!!!

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: Sabesan (@ 192-ppp-a.tnt09.agis.net) on: Fri Aug 20 22:31:09 EDT 1999
  
  hello dear HCIRF's and ordinary IRF's.... oru 10 pattu eduthu kodunga namma Srikanth avargalakku.... ennala sathiamaa oru pattu kooda eduthu kodukka mudiathu (:-)))))......
  
  Srikanth, sathiamaa ennakku music kaezhvi gnanam mattum than irukku (adhuvum konjam thaaan)... analum oreee oru chinnaa sandhegam.... adhu eppadi onnumee pudhusa pannama oru allu 750 films or 20 and more years fieldla irukaaru....
  
  
  
  
• From: Srikanth (@ proxy2-external.moline1.il.home.com) on: Fri Aug 20 23:25:10 EDT 1999
  
  Sabesan ;
  Just for argument sake,
  Monthly Deva is doing about 10 films...How?
  Anu malik is doing around 5 films a month...How?
  ....adhu eppadi onnumee pudhusa pannama (oru) 2 allu are still going around.
  
  I cannot rule out blindly Raja did something great to TFm than other MDs.
  
  
• From: NOV (@ bkj-cache81.jaring.my) on: Sat Aug 21 00:18:01 EDT 1999
  
  Sri Kanth - Perhaps you only want to make this thread volatile. :-))
  Has IR earned millions of fans throughout the world, without doing anything new?
  To say the least, that is an outrageous statement.
  I don't think there is anything to debate along these lines, and I am not even a HCIRF.
  
  
• From: kannan (@ proxy.cowan.edu.au) on: Sat Aug 21 01:41:27 EDT 1999
  
  Recently I saw an English movie Sisters act, which was released in 1989 and I was astonished to hear the background music of Thillana Thillana song from the film Muthu. ARR has added some mirudangam beats to the tune and plagiarised the score.
  
  IR during his prime days was composing about 20 to 30 films per year compared to ARR's rate of 5 films/yr and yet during the first decade of IR's dominance all the songs were refreshing and new in certain aspect. ARR's composition looks very similar (..Ayirithil oruvan in Iruvar and ..Kiku Arutha in Padayappa).
  
  
• From: rameshg (@ 98ca5eca.ipt.aol.com) on: Sat Aug 21 02:37:57 EDT 1999
  
  Srikanth
  
  I dont have that much of music Gyanam as you and cannot probably list 10+ (musically) new things that raja had introduced into TFM.
  
  Neither do I claim to have heard all the songs of MSV or ARR but have, I feel, heard some of their popular numbers.
  
  I go by the rule - Oru paanai sothukku oru soru patham.
  
  My knowledge of Music is only by hearing, a layman's knowledge and so cannot argue on raga or styles that IR had introduced. I leave that to other more knowledgable HCIRF's to defend.
  
  But anyway that it is not what I had meant when I wrote :
  
  One of the things that always amazed me about IR was not only his variety and brilliance but the way his music was growing over years (until recently).
  
  What I meant is that as a layman, I see a vast difference in the way he arranged his instruments and also in orchestration betwen anakili and Thalapathy (for eg.) and that for the better. I feel that there has been always an upward learning curve during his tenure and improvisation.
  
  I later learnt (more only from the forum) that he had introduced western classical style into TFM.
  
  Now again I am not arguing that he was the first one who did that. This had been argued by many in this forum and I leave that to them.
  
  But it amazed me more that IR had introduced western classical style (into his songs) and had still made the songs sound not only so very Indian (or should I say south Indian) but with so much 'mann vasanai' that a 'pamaran' and 'patti thotti' could relate to them.
  
  There have been many who have played stunts and acted as heroes in movies before him but it required a MGR to relate the heroism to the common man.
  
  I am merely stating my admiration for my Idol (IR not MGR) and it is no way my intention to belittle or denounce other MD's.
  
  
• From: raaja-vetti (@ cache01.erlm.siemens.de) on: Sat Aug 21 06:42:34 EDT 1999
  
  Dear Srikanth,
  Can you list of 10+ new things Raja did musically new to TFM. I will prove it was already done by someone
  
  naan music'la kannaa-pinnaa makku. irundhaalum, oru sila songs enakku pudichchu pOga enna kaaraNam'nu yOsichchappa, sila vishayangaL common'a irukkara maathiri irundhuchchu. I feel they are unique to IR. May be, you can explain us better. I find it difficult to put them in word. But still Im making an attempt here:
  
  1. Interlude vandering:
  
  Songs [not all!] have a theme, flow and sometimes they keep the listener in certain state. But interlude is the only place where the MD gets some freedom and they give the bridge between two segments of a song and they have to still retain the mood/flow/theme. Few of the IR interludes appear to move away from their restrictions, and they freely vander to a new state and do some magic there before coming back to the previous state: [again, I find it very tough to get those aural pleasures in words ;(]. For eg, I quote
  
  a) poondhaLiraada pon malar sooda : that break in the interlude
  lala-lal-lala-lala-lullaa..
  
  
  b) "uRavenum puthiya vaanil malarndhathE idhaya mOgam" 2nd interlude: This song itself starts very slowly in the pallavi and picks up momentum in the charaNam. But in the beginning of the 2nd interlude, the song comes to a complete halt and just keeps the link alive with the help of piano chords. Then it continues to a new height with piano, wavering violins & jazzy drums! And this violing tracks, in my feeling, are, a vandering from the main theme of the song and still with a know-how of descending back to the main theme.
  
  c) vizhiyilE maNi vizhyil mouna mozhi: 2nd interlude.. violins again do the magic!
  
  d) madai thiRandhu paadum siru kuyil naan: 1st interlude: keyboard [may be somthing else too!] takes over from the harmonium and conducts, a kind of parade and leads a way to elec. guitar [I may be wrong again. it sounds so to me] which sustains, oscillates to mimic the boundless joy and there comes the violin who streamlines everything puts everybody in place to continue the song!
  
  2. Surprise transitions:
  
  Offlate, few of IR songs started having some kind of transitions: I dont know wht is it called technically. Here, what I mean by transition is, a surprise change in the way the song progresses. I'll go to examples:
  
  a) kanjik kalayaththa vanji sumakkayilE frm muththukkaaLai: in the first interlude, that flute [is it a flute? EthO oru "ooothi" vaasikka padum vaaththiyam ;)] suddenly picks up a momentum and elevates to a new high with out any damage to the flow/tune
  
  b) naaL thORum endhan kaNNil nee pourNami: 2nd interlude: a change in the percussion and followed by that violin, springs a pleasant surprise in the song and it takes to a different state. Ofcourse, to bring that surprise, during the 1st charaNam, he introduces those percussion, but again switches back to the old beats when the pallavi is repeated. kind of giving a hint?
  [After few listenings, I felt a song length of 4 to 5 minutes is too less to evoke a state, allow the listener to vander for some time and suddenly spring a suprise and elevate to new state, meanwhile allowing the singer to covey the lyrics... its not an easy one!]
  
  c) 'sandhirarum sooriyarum peththeduththa puththiranum' from avathaaram : during that "thaiyaaaah--- thara thayyaaah--- thara thayyaah.." [pallavi], koodavE Odi varum violin suddenly changes it gears and lifts up and up and up...
  
  d) similar "transitions" in the small one minute score done by IR for some "magaLir special" video snippet which used to come often in Sun TV
  
  e) To some extent in the piece "how to name it"
  
  I seem to be getting something of this sort only from IR, esp.ly that 2nd aspect. In my opinion thts the only IR trademark left uncopied by the "contemporary" music directors in TFM. I dont know whether this things have been already done by somebody else in TFM. If so, please enlighten me as Im very eager to listen to those musical magics.
  
  These kind of gems [in my opinion] seem to be very rare in TFM these days. Current day songs [not all; but this includes IR as well] repeat the pallavi with different instrument for a while and move to charaNam OR change the beat/or allow it to simply roll with different timings and making a move to charaNam somehow, makes me to feel thin or atleast I felt tht I've lost the evoked state! ;(
  
  Ofcourse, this is my feeling and whtever I've enjoyed I've attempted to put in words. Please educate me if they are already defined in some system of music.
  
  Thanks & Regards
  
  
• From: raaja-vetti (@ cache01.erlm.siemens.de) on: Sat Aug 21 06:46:34 EDT 1999
  
  Yep! Please read the vandering as wandering thru out my post!
  
  
• From: Srikanth (@ proxy2-external.moline1.il.home.com) on: Sat Aug 21 07:17:38 EDT 1999
  
  1. Songs [not all!] have a theme! ;
  2. Interlude wandering --- "a new team appidina enna. " can you explain this little more.
  
  In Indian music the most important aspect for a song is the tune or the melody. It is like a good story for a movie. As far as the tune goes there are many complicated tunes created by MSV.
  His brigas (which is alian to raja) is one of the most complicated structures in TFM.
  For Example; Vannakam palamurai soonen from Avan oru sarithiram ,
  The Brigas emphasis he places for every line is something great. Secondly the basic mood of the song is light music. The song is set to a tough carnatic raja called Abogi. By the way in the same song, the tabla scores are remarkable. Basically the theme goes around abogi at times moves to bgm in western scales.
  there are many songs that have a theme in them. Please listen more. the theme idea was done much before raja.
  
  Basically most of the raja tune are squares, meaning there arn't many or no brigas at all.
  
  Take the song vandal mahalakshimi --- point me out a briga or take the song pazamuthir solai which is really blunt all together.
  
  Taking beat patterns by raja, it is almost the same throughout the song. Never changes the jathi, Very mechanical. This was reason ARr was able to beat him by giving so many variations in the rythm structures.
  
  
  
• From: raaja-vetti (@ cache00.erlm.siemens.de) on: Sat Aug 21 08:00:52 EDT 1999
  
  Dear Srikanth,
  
  thanx for your quick reply.
  Can you please Brigas a little more? It sounds intersting. I'll surely listen to vaNakkam pala muRai sonnEn. btw, MSV is really mellisai mannar and I dont have any argument in this atleast. :-)
  
  By "theme" what I mean is its not the mood alone [happy/pathos/seductive] There is a structural pattern or instrument in the song which ensures that song keeps flow with in the same bound. for eg:
  
  a) thenna maraththula thendral adikkithu nandhavanak kiLyE - in this I see tht metric to be the sandham and the length of each word/sentence.
  b) poojaikkEththE poovithu nEththu thaana pooththathu - There is a tiny keyboard piece in the begining of the 1st interlude which keeps the "theme" or structural behaviour of the song with in the flow, overwhich another track of violins freely allowed to go on its own! When the charaNam comes, table takes the job of retaining tht link.
  c) Erikkarap poongaatrE nee pOra vazhi then kizhakkO - each and everyline is followed by a flute which makes the "flow" very flowing along with the tabla.
  d) kuyilE kuyilE poonguyilE paatula kooda andha maathiri oru linking pattern irukku. I couldnt feel whether its tabala or KB! something which makes the flow continuous, they take break often!
  
  this is also part of the theme I call it apart frm the basic "bhavam" based mood of the song.
  
  By interlude wandering I mean, there are few songs in which there is a subtheme: The instruments freely jump to a new mood/theme: konja nEram angayE oor suththittu, samaththaaa, oNNumE nadakkaatha appaavi maathiri, ErkanavE Odikittu irukkara theme'kuLLara vandhu fit aaikkum.
  
  
• From: raaja-vetti (@ cache01.erlm.siemens.de) on: Sat Aug 21 08:06:56 EDT 1999
  
  Please correctly read as:
  1.Can you please explain the Brigas a little more?
  2.When the charaNam comes, tabla takes the job of retaining tht link. [poojaikkEththa poovithu]
  3.something which makes the flow continuous, though they take break often! [kuyilE kuyilE]
  
  

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