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IR vs ARR - Who is the best user of piano

Topic started by Dorai (@ 12.144.36.2) on Tue Feb 12 14:19:24 EST 2002.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Hello Everyone,
I keep hearing in Sun TV interviews, Sabthaswarangal etc that ARR is the best pianist around. But I feel that IR is miles ahead of ARR in composing using Piano. Some great examples are as below

En Vaanille Ore Vennilla (Johny) - Esp the starting bits

Malai En Vedthanai Kuttuthadi (Sethu) - The starting bit.

Nee Partha Parvaikuru Nanri (Hey Ram)

On the other hand I can provide some examples of ARR's use of piano too.

1. Thendralee Thendralee (Kadhal Desam)- Starting bits, interludes (just brilliant)
2. Vennillave Vennilave (2nd interlude)

But I feel IR's compositions of Piano is too creative and not repetative. Any opinions?.

I would like you all to bring some more IR's use of piano and compare it with ARR's with due respect to both of their works.

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: hari (@ 66.68.100.51) on: Sat Feb 16 12:34:51 EST 2002
  
  oops sorry, i got confused - i was talking abt the filler.
  
  Yeah the counter point during yenadhu viralgaL avaL ... (saranam first 2 lines) seems pianish, though i guess its not piano. It continues throughout the charanam in fact (except the last line)
  
  
• From: hari (@ 66.68.100.51) on: Sat Feb 16 12:37:57 EST 2002
  
  
  Another song I really like for piano - kAdhal sadugudu (alai) - very very soft, feels nice. its used at many places in the song.
  
  
• From: Vicky (@ 12.89.140.91) on: Sat Feb 16 14:15:10 EST 2002
  
  Srikanth: I appreciate your thoughts on my note. Another song where we can truly find IR's classical touch is "Nan Thedum Sevandi Poo Idhu" (Dharmapathini). Though it was a string composition, yet you could hear the piano/keyboards behind every interlude. ARR's compositions explore new ambient sounds unlike IR. I liked ARR's "Jadoo" from Rangeela. Its a almost a 6 minute piece, wonderful orchestration and out of the classical tinge. IR uses strict interpretation with such geometrical progression and its difficult to know where he is going with his next note without a spiraling continuum.
  
  
• From: Krishnamurthy (@ 198.102.112.18) on: Sat Feb 16 14:16:48 EST 2002
  
  Interesting discussion. If possible, please listen to "Poovile medai podava, poovizhi mooda...". Classic Bach. Its a short song actually, with beautiful piano fills.
  
  
• From: jadu (@ 63.193.193.7) on: Sun Feb 17 01:32:28 EST 2002
  
  during MSV's time, there used to be a keyboard player/pianist called Ben. Apparently he is one of the first persons in the TFM 'recognised' as somebody who knew western classical music. then viji entered with IR, ARR joined IR, etc.. the rest is history.
  
  Just some anecdotes...to a very serious discussion.
  
  
• From: Ravana (@ 68.58.126.40) on: Sun Feb 17 15:42:43 EST 2002
  
  Listen to Maestro's "Uravugal Thodarkathai" from Aval Apadithaan sung by K.J.J. Excellent piano melody.
  
  
• From: suresh (@ 202.88.155.34) on: Sun Feb 17 16:08:55 EST 2002
  
  What about "Ponmaanai theduthe, en jeevan paaduthe" sung by Kamalhassan for a Mohan-Urvashi starrer (can't remember the movie's name, early 80's)? Haven't listened to this song in ages now, but I feel this features some neat work on the piano from IR.
  
  Didn't "Niram pirithu" from TIME also have a decent piano score?
  
  
• From: siva (@ 210.186.221.193) on: Mon Feb 18 00:44:57 EST 2002
  
  listen to the intro of guruvayoorappa... beautiful piano piece
  
  other piano pieces by raja which is great :
  
  nee partha - hey ram
  some bgm from ithayathai thirudhathey
  thenmadurai vaighanathi
  
  
  
  
• From: Dorai (@ 12.144.36.2) on: Mon Feb 18 16:12:28 EST 2002
  
  Srikanth,
  ----------------------------------------------------------
  Dorai, please say you like IR and only ir. period we get your point. Ir orchestration is seemsless no doubt about it, that does not give a free ticket for you say orchestration done by msv/tkr is incorrect or poor. Every musician had their good day and bad day at work.
  ---------------------------------------------------------
  
  You have tried to criticize me for the bias towards IR. But I have not seen an answer to the questions that I have raised. I still emphasize the fact that MSV definetly lacks in proper orchestration and it is evident in many songs. It is not that single track of music and vocal which is the cause of the problem. That may be attributed to the poor quality of the sound that we see in many old songs. But the problem/question that I have raised is the progression of the music by itself. I do not see it coming seamless as in IR or even ARR.
  
  Recording technique only aids in bringing out the ochestration clearly. But if the orchestration is generally poor then even the best recording techniques cannot help. I am questioning the basic lack of orchestration approach in many MSV/TKR songs.
  
  
• From: Srikanth (@ 151.201.227.215) on: Mon Feb 18 19:36:02 EST 2002
  
  Dorai, this thread was having a healthy discussion on ir/arr piano, hari slightly tangented about backgrounds he liked from a msv song, he ended it there. You could not take the truth when he told an issue thatr was not in IR music generally, you took it to next level by pulling in msv/tkr and started talking about a techincal aspect and claiming you dont know technically. I dont want argue expect to say you need to hear more and learn more music.
  Best wishes.
  
  
• From: Gowri (@ 161.142.100.86) on: Mon Feb 18 21:29:08 EST 2002
  
  Despite the lack of technical resources, I find the songs of the 60s to be superior in terms of recording then say of the early 80s. Why is this so? Have most of the 60s songs been digitally enhanced?
  
  
• From: :-) (@ 128.107.253.44) on: Tue Feb 19 03:54:47 EST 2002
  
  No...some problem with ur ear.
  
  
• From: peeps (@ 12.162.224.6) on: Tue Feb 19 08:06:26 EST 2002
  
  Digression starts:
  does anyone know why we see the light first and hear the sound second when we see a lightning(thunder??)?
  Digression over:
  
  
• From: srini (@ 213.42.0.242) on: Tue Feb 19 09:00:34 EST 2002
  
  
  This is not much of a digression. I am planning to learn the piano. I am based in Dubai. Do u guys know anyone here who also knows Tamil Cinema music well ? Then I can come & contribute to this thread productively.
  
  Hence this is not a digression.!
  
  
• From: S T S (@ 12.234.131.39) on: Fri Feb 22 04:56:48 EST 2002
  
  Srikanth,
  
  Can you clarify what you meant by '...But the problem/question that I have raised is the progression of the music by itself. I do not see it coming seamless as in IR or even ARR.
  ...' I reserve my comments later.
  
  
• From: Srikanth (@ 151.201.226.96) on: Fri Feb 22 07:26:52 EST 2002
  
  sts, You need to ask Dorai not me, i did not say those things.
  
  
• From: OneMore (@ 206.175.176.2) on: Fri Feb 22 14:51:18 EST 2002
  
  Srikanth :
  
  When you ask Dorai to hear and learn more music, is it a wee bit condescending? Moreover, are you implying that MSV/TKR did not have any problems with orchestration or that since it is a digression from the topic of discussion, you consider it irrelevant?
  
  
• From: Srikanth (@ 216.65.106.130) on: Fri Feb 22 15:30:53 EST 2002
  
  one more (exorcist:) or who ever you are:
  
  Dont you think it was "condescending" for someone here to tell that msv/tkr did not know background music without proper musical knowledge. mind it this thread was not the usual stuff here,
  people were discussing something here.
  
  Why dont you ask him this (oh might be he is your pal:) instead you call me arrogant because I told someone to "please hear more music", :):)
  
  I only see some "sinister" in your posting, nothing more. Anyway dont reply to me I might not read your posting.
  
  Lesson learnt: Never talk about music to strangers.
  
  
• From: oru musicianin thalaividhi (@ 208.51.40.107) on: Fri Feb 22 15:48:32 EST 2002
  
  namma makkaL nInga sonnadha purijikkittA, TFM-la oru thread kooda irukkAdhu. :-)
  
  enagaiyo...keta mathri illa, rasigan's/jeera's advice is for others only.:)
  
  
• From: Dorai (@ 12.144.36.2) on: Fri Feb 22 17:24:44 EST 2002
  
  Srikant,
  I respect your musical knowledge and understanding of all finer technical aspects of musical composing. In fact, I have learnt a lot from your postings here and other threads. The point I raised was that the proper orchestration does not have to be dependant on high quality recording only. I see that missing with MSV/TKR and have quoted the Kangal Enge song as an example since you were discussing about it. I did not say "msv/tkr did not know background music without proper musical knowledge". Thats all.
  
  BTW, OneMore is not my pal and I thing it was an unwanted statement from your side. Let us keep these discussions healthy and unpersonal so that we can all learn from one other without getting into personal conflicts.
  
  
• From: OneMore (@ 206.175.176.2) on: Fri Feb 22 17:55:22 EST 2002
  
  Srikanth :
  
  I did not call you arrogant - if you choose to gather that from my posting, that is your prerogative. If someone said that MSV/TKR did not know background music, it might be an opinion but I fail to see why that is 'condescending'.
  
  Like Dorai has said, I am not Dorai's pal and your accusation is totally unwarranted. If you learn some lessons in manners to go alongwith your music lessons, people will focus on what you say rather than on how to say it.
  
  
• From: OneMore (@ 206.175.176.2) on: Fri Feb 22 17:56:08 EST 2002
  
  Oh! and by the way, the question that I asked lies unanswered.
  
  
• From: Jeera (@ 206.175.176.2) on: Fri Feb 22 17:56:32 EST 2002
  
  enagaiyo...keta mathri illa, rasigan's/jeera's advice is for others only.:)
  
  Were u referring to me....
  
  I have nothing to do with this thread except for reading what has been written.
  
  
• From: Srikanth (@ 151.201.226.96) on: Fri Feb 22 18:15:46 EST 2002
  
  Onemore, I did not call you bad or poor or cheap any where in my posting - if you choose to gather that from my posting, that is your prerogative.
  
  If someone said that please hear more music it is be an suggestion but I also fail to see why that is 'condescending'.
  
  Just read your positng again And for heaven sake please let us discuss. This is one of few threads here which still has some musical sprit in them, dont kill it with personal vengence or hatred on me.
  I will stop discussing music.
  
  
• From: Mr. O (@ 64.105.35.174) on: Fri Feb 22 18:51:01 EST 2002
  
  I do not believe that KVM/MSV-TKR/ R Sudharsanam lacked class in the orchestration department. The first 2 I have listed, completed more than 400 movies using a single track recording system. The point here is, prolificity under trying circumstances. Under such conditions, a composer would not load a song like 'mAlai soodum maNa nAL', 'pAlirukkum pazhamirukkum' with more orchestration than what is deemed necessary. You do not burden yourself with that 'extra' effort given the time constraints and the travails to be undergone to get even the basics (like teaching the singer, endless rehearsals etc) in place. IMO, even in these songs, the orchestral ornamentation was tastefully done without overkill.
  
  Now, please do go ahead and come up with atleast one other composer who has been as prolific as the above mentioned in the 50-60's phase in India. Hint : Do not bother trying, there aren't any.
  
  Check out songs like 'thaNNeerilE' by KVM (from Mugarasi) , MSV's 'muththamO mOgamO', the harmony / counter melodies do not come through very clearly when the vocals are on, you need to pay more attention to the 'gaps'.
  
  
• From: hihi:-) (@ 128.111.113.76) on: Fri Feb 22 19:38:37 EST 2002
  
  Now, please do go ahead and come up with atleast one other composer who has been as prolific as the above mentioned in the 50-60's phase in India. Hint: Do not bother trying, there aren't any.
  
  there was the master of all: GR. he was the one who started all the new things in tfm which give us so much to fight over :-)
  
  

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