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Illaiyaraja' music and style already in other parts of the world?

Topic started by Nithin (@ nc.pr.mcs.net) on Thu May 7 22:48:50 EDT 1998.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Friends, this is an ambiguous quesiton. It actually a rhetoric, or it begs the question? I am not sure. However, I want to ask you Raja die-hards if you have found anything similar to Raja's style of music and Raja' s tunes in other parts of the world? I believe I have and I want to make certain soon enough.

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: Bharat (@ dsi.mids.com) on: Wed May 13 17:13:27 EDT 1998
  
  Nithin:
  
  I too have been listening to Raja’s music for a very long time. I remember my "arai draayar" days when Ungal Viruppam used to begin at 8:30 a.m., just as I would have to leave for school, and the nights used to have "Prabhu… Prabhu… Prabhu" and "Ungal nanban L.R. Narayanan" present the newer releases. I used to be so blinded by his music I’d refuse to acknowledge that anyone else could produce good music too. In fact, even my interest in WCM began only in my late teens, long after sufficient exposure to Raja. So I completely, absolutely, whole-heartedly, unequivocally (any more??) agree with everything you have to say about "the greatness of Raja".
  
  However, this particular discussion is about whether others in the western world have plagiarized his style. Why do you disagree that he has influences from around the world? Having influences doesn’t make one a copycat. In fact, I think that has greatly enriched his music. One can be influenced and STILL BE ORIGINAL. MSV/TKR’s "hep" songs those days had elements of cha-cha, "twist", etc. which were popular western influences at that time.
  
  One more thing. I disagree with your statement that "For his music to be presented, he has to use orchestra, and there is only one final arrangement possible and that is definitely going to sound western, there is no other way to arrange violins, trumpets, percussion, wood instruments and get sounds as if the sounds must have come from some other instruments of some other universe." I think Raja’s greatness is in blending even the most Western of influences into a completely Indian-sounding tune.
  
  Anyway, I think I’m getting out of this loop. My claim is just that it is possible for someone like Elfman to sound similar to Raja without necessarily copying from him. That is all.
  
  
• From: S.Suresh (@ dwarpal.wipsys.soft.net) on: Thu May 14 00:11:30 EDT 1998
  
  Bharat,
  
  Just one point. I agree with you wholeheartedly that IR's greatness lies in using WCM in such a way that it blends beautifully with our music and sounds vey much Indian. "Poonkathave Thaz thiravai" is an excellent example. Here symphony music is so well blended with the nadaswaram in the first interlude. In fact Mayamalavagowla is so well evident in the song that to an Indian it sounds like a carnatic ragam played by lot of violins and to a westerners ear it may sound as if WCM is being played. Excellent stuff.
  
  I do believe that Raja was influenced by WCM. But he has used WCM in a way that no westerner would have dreamt of. Raja himself in a lot of biographical articles written in Tamil weeklies has said that he was very interested in WCM.
  
  
• From: venkat (@ excelsior-490.fuse.net) on: Sun May 17 23:03:28 EDT 1998
  
  Hi!
  I have been a lurker for a loooong time, but never posted 'cause I was (and still am) in awe of most of the regulars here, with the vast knowledge they have. Anyways, a quick note on Elfman - he is the guy behind the zany Simpsons'(FOX) score...and in a bit of coincidence, I was reading a music/entertainment magazine this weekend (DETAIL, I think) where there was this small box article titled "What is in your CD Player right now?" - a question directed at some random musicians. Well, Danny Elfman had - and I am not making this up - KhalNayak. He said he loved Indian music!The other performer who draws inspiration from Indian sources, and of whom I am a humongous fan, is Bjork.
  
  
• From: Nithin (@ nc.pr.mcs.net) on: Mon May 18 00:41:41 EDT 1998
  
  Hi, Madan, Bharath, Suresh, Viswa, Srikanth, Diwakar and VENKAT
  
  This query has begotten some useful information beyond what we could have expected. After Bharat' and Srikanth's feedback, I bought MIB and also Batman. MIB does have the Raja touch, while Batman is any amazing score with all that drama, ambience as someone says and depth. The scores are so precise that the scenes for Batman become so alive and true-to-life. This is one thing Raja's scores lacked, the ability to be dramatic and precise. But then, we are speaking of styles and I do not think I am let down at all after listening to MIB score's once again.
  
  To backup my claims, I did go and check out some Danny Elfman's sites, where he has admitted to influence from music of other parts of the world. Any now, we have VENKAT who has brought it closer home!! Thanks a lot Venkat, I am going to buy this magazine today. By the way, is in't it Khal Nayak that has the song 'Niley Niley Ambe pe, chandini raate...
  copy of 'Ilaya Nila Pozhigirudey'
  
  Venkat please confirm. In the meantime, Bharat and Srikant, hope you found my discussions worthwhile, now that we have Venkat on board.
  
  Venkat, by the way, you are right about the SIMPSONs music.
  
  
  
• From: Nithin (@ nc.pr.mcs.net) on: Mon May 18 00:48:20 EDT 1998
  
  Bhaskar
  
  We have absolutedly the same pattern in musical enjoyment. I can never forget the 8:30 ungal viruppam, which I never consciously used to listen to, but it soon got the better of me, then the LR Narayanan bit (some of my most loving movie 10 minutes after 9:30 p.m. were Kadal Meengal, Garjanai, Anbukku Nan Adimai, Ananda Raga, PannerPushpangal, Karayellam Shenbagapoo. In fact, Endredrum Aaanandame of Kadal Meengal still rings in my ears with LR Narayanan's voice) and so many more that is not there anymore!!
  
  
  
  I am also very much in love with music of MSV, VKumar, Sankar-Ganesh who each have establishes certain distinct styles and quite independent of any other styles we have heard. That is the great charm about Indian film music. Each composer is so distinct. You look at RDB, LP, K-A, Bappil Lahiri, Salil Chowhdhruy, RJain, Rajesh Roshan, it never ceases to amaze me!
  
  
• From: Nithin (@ nc.pr.mcs.net) on: Mon May 18 00:58:33 EDT 1998
  
  Friends
  
  This still is a topic I would not run away from. During the course of discussions about Danny Elfman (considered the king of film composers) I bought his Men In Black album to confirm my feeling that Danny Elfman is highly influenced by Illaiyaraja's style. I continue to defen that claim, however in the process I found that Danny Elfman may be a shade more sophisiticated that any one composer including Illlaiyaraja in terms of sound mixing or tracks. If you listen to MIB, you will know what I am trying to say. Danny Elfman has so many layers or tracks that the music is highly mutlilayered (more than any western classical orchestral pieces) and yet sounds just like one piece of music. I think, Illaiyaraja should incorporate this feedback into his symphony and bring out some of the most intricate musical patterns ever weaved on this earth.
  
  
• From: Bharat (@ dsi.mids.com) on: Mon May 18 12:34:10 EDT 1998
  
  Nithin:
  
  Maybe you should say how further this discussion can be continued. So far we've discussed whether or not Ilayaraja has been an influence on modern-day American composers.
  
  And please stop referring to me as Bhaskar (two times already) :--)
  
  
• From: Madhan (@ 202.41.117.11) on: Mon May 18 14:36:20 EDT 1998
  
  Dear Nithin,
  
  Well, I am spellbound by your input on American composers being influenced by our own Maestro.
  
  The song "Ilaya nila " was copied in Hindi a long time back by Kalyanandji - Anandji in the movie " Painterbabu" - song was sung by Kishore Kumar - the interludes were pathetic in the Hindi version and the stanzas were not continous with the pallavi.
  
  There were some doubts as to which was the original , IR's Tamil version or the Hindi version of K-A . But after listening to both versions, I concluded that IR's had to be the original one !! moreover, the Hindi version came much later than IR's one.
  
  As for KHALNAYAK, I think Mr.Elfman has either a poor taste for Indian music or he is just kidding - this movie had some awful music .
  
  
  
• From: Bharat (@ dsi.mids.com) on: Mon May 18 16:38:46 EDT 1998
  
  Madhan:
  
  The Hindi film was Kalaakaar, a remake of Payanangal Mudivadhillai, starring Sridevi and Kunaal Goswami (Manoj Kumar's son). I played the original "Ilaya Nila" to a friend from Bombay, and he said the Hindi version was known in its time for its "great guitar interludes"!!!!!
  
  
• From: Venkat (@ excelsior-447.fuse.net) on: Mon May 18 22:51:52 EDT 1998
  
  NIthin & Others!
  I will check up and confirm the magazines' name where I read the Elfman bit...it was a bookstore and I was speed-reading 2-3 music mags.
  Will e-mail tomorrow.
  Bye!
  
  
• From: Venkat (@ excelsior-420.fuse.net) on: Mon May 18 23:08:49 EDT 1998
  
  Its me again! I picked up my "Simpsons - songs in the key of Springfield" CD (ok, I am big Simpsons fan :-) and Nithins observation of DEs music being "multilayered" seems accurate when you see what Matt Groening, the Simpsons creator says about the theme song :
  "I gave Elfman what I call a 'flavors' tape, featuring the kind of sound I wanted for the Simpsons theme. The tape included the Jetsons theme, selections from Nino Rota's Juliet of the Spirits, a Remington electric shaver jingle by Frank Zappa, some easy-listening music by Esquivel, and a teach-your-parrot-to-talk record. Elfman gave it a listen and said - "I know what you are exactly looking for!"".
  
  Ok, whats the point of my rambling? I get the feeling both IR and DE might be having similar tastes in international music, and follow a similar approach to incorporating alien sounds, leading to some similarities.
  As an aside: check out the Nino Rota "Romeo & Juliet" score (this is an old 50's or 60's movie, *not* the new one) referred to above - you will again notice shades of IR..
  
  
• From: Nithin (@ nc.pr.mcs.net) on: Mon May 18 23:15:43 EDT 1998
  
  Bharat
  
  Sorry for calling you again by a different name. Very sorry about that. There was a good old friend by the name Bhaskar.
  
  Venkat
  
  I looked for the Detail magazine to find Danny Elman's remarks about Indian music. I did not find that column in the latest Detail. Please do let us know next time.
  
  Regards Nino Rota "Romeo & Juliet score (it is originally a compostion by Beethoven or Tchaikovsky, I can't remember who) you mean to say that IR's style was in vogues in the 50'?
  
  Man, I have got to take back whatever I have blackballed you guys with in this query!!
  
  I am going to search for Nino Rota in the Public library, before I decide to buy it.
  
  Thanks again, Venkat
  
  
• From: Bharat (@ dsi.mids.com) on: Tue May 19 09:53:24 EDT 1998
  
  Nithin:
  
  Just an aside: Nino Rota's score for Romeo and Juliet ('68/'69) is quite different from the "Classical" Romeo and Juliet by Prokofiev. Nino Rota has composed music for almost all Fellini films (check out Amarcord), and most famously (at least to modern listeners) the signature trumpet score of the Godfather films. You may want to check out a compilation called "Rota scores for Fellini", pretty good.
  
  I also agree with Venkat that Raja and Elfman could be following a similar approach to incorporating alien themes.
  
  

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