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IR or ARR

Topic started by M.Anand (@ ihproxy1.proxy.lucent.com) on Tue Jan 18 01:03:04 EST 2000.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

hi all, I am Anand from bangalore and a new visitor to the tfm page. I am a great fan of both ARR and IR. I browsed through all the earlier threads on ARR and IR. It seems to me that there are quite a few anti ARRs out here.

Let me tell you something about IRs music. IRs music became popular and sounded different because he tried to bring in a westernization of Carnatic ragas in his songs. Even a dappanguthu was in Lathaangi or sivaranjani. That actually made the difference. Otherwise he is no great MD. One might argue that such a westernization or incorporation of a carnatic raga in a dappanguthu or jazz is something that demands great applause. But IR doesn't deserve that because, if u say u are tuning a song in a particular raagam, you have to bring out the nuances, the laya and bhaava of the raagam in to the song. Just traversing the swaras in the raagam here and there does not mean that u have tuned a song in that raagam. Ilayaraaja has done just that, a mere traversal through the swaras. In many places, there were apaswaras also. ARR has tuned very few songs based on Carnatic ragas but they were classics. For example Mettu podu in Anjali is a beautiful song in Ananda Bhairavi. He has brought out every nuance of the raagam in that song. Minsaara Kanna in padaiyappa is an excellent piece in vasantha. En mel vizhunda mazhai tuliye is again a beautiful piece in kaapi. A real mix of the east and west. That is what u call fusion. Ilayaraaja boasts of having composed songs in rare raagas like chala nattai, kanakangi etc. For example pani vizhum malar vanam in chala nattai is again a pure note traversal. There was no attempt to bring out the nuances in the raaga. So IR knew how to make songs sound good but ARR gives a fine polish to each and every one of his songs. IR composed music for 700 odd films. Hey Ram is his 785th film. Considering 7 songs per movie, he has tuned almost 5500 songs. Huge number indeed but hardly 5% of those songs are listenable others are 100% pure junk. But 99.9% of ARRs songs are listenable and they are also good numbers. What do you say about this?

Regards,
Anand

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: eden (@ 202.54.71.131) on: Mon Apr 17 08:16:08 EDT 2000
  
  Suresh!
  Who told you that kAlApAni songs weren't hits? Probably they weren't hits in TN or Chennai! The songs're so popular here (i.e. in Kerala, where they speak malayaLam:-)), esp. the `mArikkoottinuLLil' number by KSC! This despite the fact that the movie itself didn't do too well!
  
  Let's please not distort facts to prove our arguements!
  
  Do you think `manathil enna ninaivugaLO' is better than `thavikkirEn' or `kAdhal nee dhAnA'? Sorry, I beg to differ..IR has his own inimitable style of POP too, which is not in line with any popular western artiste's scores, again pointing to his inner drive for creativity! Please don't forget that `ennai thAlAtta varuvALO' is nothing but IR brand POP, which was a smash hit as well! Please listen to the second interlude of `rAm, rAm' in HR!
  
  IR is still the maestro when it comes to composing! And on your wish list for IR, just the one about his synth stuff alone makes some sense, IMO:-)
  
  
• From: rjay (@ brkfw0005.navistar.com) on: Mon Apr 17 11:10:59 EDT 2000
  
  The only Raja influence I can see in Roja
  is in the song Kadhal Rojave. Sing the pallavi
  and anupallavi and sing 'Changathil ezhudhatha kavidaiyil'. The melodic flow(not the chandam)
  is very very similar. (Sa-Gab, Ri-Ni, Sa-Gab, Ri-Ni - and then the Sa-Ga). And the use of Tabla
  has been heard in Poongatru pudhithandhu.
  
  Rahman's paradigm was totally different. With the
  first note of Chinna chinna aasai, it is evident.
  Listen to the intro of Chinna chinna aasai - you
  wont see a well formed melody running its
  conclusive statement in a measured pace. Instead
  you will hear one or two notes, painstakingly
  carved and balanced to make you hear them in
  silence.
  
  There were lot of new stylistic ideas like,
  having different responses during repeats of
  pallavi. Chinna CHinna aasai pallavi is sung
  second time you get pizzicatto stabs, veenai
  pull, bass guitar response and so on.
  
  Raja pretty much repeats an entire section
  (in the manner of WCM).
  
  These were new to Tamil, but were not Rahman's
  great innovation. Ambient music and electronic
  music were breaking the concept of note-based
  music and returning to sound-based music, worldover during 1990-92. Rahman's genius was
  in seemlessly integrating Indian melodies to
  such a background. Pudhu vellai mazhai is
  an alltime acheivement. (Just like Poongathavae
  thaazh thiravai).
  
  The only other influences I saw in Roja were
  T.Rajendar style melodies in Kadhal rojavae
  charanam and the whole song of 'Rukkumani'.
  
  
  
  
  
• From: rjay (@ brkfw0005.navistar.com) on: Mon Apr 17 11:16:07 EDT 2000
  
  One Raja's song that evokes a very close mood
  like Chinna chinna aasai was 'Putham pudhu
  kaalai' from Alaigal oyavathillai.
  
  A KVM master piece 'malargal nanaindhana paniyaale' and a MSV masterpiece 'Chevvanathil
  oru natchathiram' evoke in me the similar mood.
  Let me hasten to add I am talking about my subjective responses and not any technical
  similarity.
  
  
• From: rjay (@ brkfw0005.navistar.com) on: Mon Apr 17 11:23:12 EDT 2000
  
  If Raja makes a comeback, I will be happy,
  but I would rather prefer him to rest on
  his achievements rather than trying to wear
  new shoes and running new miles. I would
  see that as my dad wearing his coolers and
  getting to the dancefloor! Raja has proved his
  mettle and earned great spot in our hearts. Let
  us not try to pressurize him to keep performing
  new stunts!
  
  In fact, When I listened to Ennai Thallatta
  varuvaalo, I was greatly upset by the
  orchestration which was very (I wont name the
  composer)'ish. Luckily the tune maintained
  the Raja muththirai.
  
  ****
  
  I liked Suresh's perspective of Raja's
  1990s, and felt there is lot of truth in what
  he says.
  
  Music, like anything else, is a function of
  context. Musicians must keep feeling their
  contexts and make constant adjustments and
  course corrections, if they need to keep
  winning the hearts of new and new listeners.
  Well, easily said!
  
  rjay
  
  
• From: sishya (@ 216.91.105.9) on: Mon Apr 17 11:35:09 EDT 2000
  
  Athi,
  
  I am really very very amazed to find out how both you and myself think very much in the same way… whatever you write is whatever I have in mind. I am thinking if there is some telepathy or godly communication between our minds. I am 100% sure it is GOD Illayaraja’s music and songs that have given us this extra power that on others have with them.. right??
  
  I completely agree with you even 200%… ARR knows no music… even roja was a fluke.. ARR did not know music and made lot of errors that’s why IR threw him out of job… right, athi?? IR always gave only best music.. even song of his was 300% Hit.. I and people like athi always wake up with IR song.. otherwise the full day goes waste… when we eat, take bath, read, write, we always need IR music.. otherwise I’ll die immediately.. and whenever I accidentally hear ARR songs, I get irritation and develop pains.. same things must be happening to Athi also as we both are very similar… right athi?
  
  As athi correctly said Alaipaudhe is flop.. Rediff is the best authentic source on hit statuses and if it reviews are not very good, then movies always flop… so, ARR will go to TV serials and will also come and play nadaswaram in athi’s wedding.. right, athi?? kandukondein is also flopping… muthalvan, jeans, roja, bombay all became hits only by fluke.. the music was nothing, and only by fluke they became hits… right, athi?
  
  All IR songs are hits, NO FLOPS… even new albums like thirumadhi palanichaami, rajasthan, tirunelvi are BESSTTTTT… Each IR song has been hit.. Each ARR song which became hit was only by fluke…, IR never copied…. Maaman veedu machan veedu was copied by carnatic music people and self proclaimed musicians and they all began singing ra ra venu gopala…. Even USA people copied IR – they copied rum bum bum as rock-and-roll albums… right, athi??
  
  I think ARR has secret links is dubai, oman and saudi arabia, afghnistan and pakistan.. He buys music from villagers there and recycles them in TFM… I, athi and other similar IR fans will form a secret squad and expose all this fraud by ARR… Athi is right person to lead all people like me…. Athi, please lead us and enlighten us…
  
  yours prayingly,
  sishya
  
  P.S : Athi, if IR is GOD, then you are his priest. showing doorway to the ultimate GOD… I want your photo and name displayed right next to IR’s photo is all IR official web sites.. if they don’t put it, tell me, I’ll protest and go on satyagraha…
  
  
  
• From: Subbu (@ 192-39-7157.unisys.com) on: Mon Apr 17 12:34:14 EDT 2000
  
  sishya,
  
  Before writing your next mail can you pls do the following ? I do not want to sound sarcastic like you. This is serious.
  
  1. Listen and write A-Z musical notations incl. interludes for 1 'IR' song and 1 '...' song. (as far as possible choose the most complicated ones for each case). This is just to feel the composition process.
  
  2. Watch a movie and follow the BGM thoroughly for one 'IR' and one '...' .
  
  3. please go through the list of movies for IR in www.raajaNGAHM.com and do the same for '...' .
  
  Note : '...' may denote any MD in the world.
  
  All the best for your journey towards the truth.
  
  
  
  
  
• From: srikanth (@ host2.cvs.aa.net) on: Mon Apr 17 12:40:12 EDT 2000
  
  Ravi
  You are wasting your time in explaining roja is not MailliPu or Samandhi pooo.........it is not reaching...why take pains and explin things
  
  beware, you might get branded as self-procalimed musican or self proclamied PookAran....
  nothing can be done.
  
  
• From: aruLaracan (@ psiphi.umsl.edu) on: Mon Apr 17 12:59:33 EDT 2000
  
  srikanth,
  
  please let at least one person retain his sanity.
  
  rjay,
  
  please continue your expert commentaries. most visitors are just mute observers.
  
  
• From: srikanth (@ host2.cvs.aa.net) on: Mon Apr 17 13:10:26 EDT 2000
  
  aruLaracan:
  Basically, if you had observed propery, all the words ravi says were mentioned clearly about 1 year ago. If sane person reads it, there would have not have been any very cheap words on arr,
  
  Thats why I requestd ravi to stop explaing music,
  You know very well how people are branded just for explaing music!...techinically, This is what people get for sharing knowledge.
  
  If you are decent enough you should have asked Ravi to continue without using my name, do not advice me...with some cheap sarcasm.
  
  Beat it.
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 129.252.22.221) on: Mon Apr 17 13:56:11 EDT 2000
  
  Suresh,
  U have changed your stnd. firt u said raja was composing junk songs during the time ARR entered and now u are saying that there was a progressive decline. anyways, i felt that IR was at his best in 1992, fresh after giving several musical hits the previous year like thalapathi, nadodi thendral, chinna gounder, meera, singaaravelan, devar magan etc.
  
  of course if u are composing for 40-50 films a year and are making 50 X 5 = 250 songs even if 40% of them are junk , its still 100 songs.
  
  
  this ratio was similiar even in the 80s. raja had always given his fair amount of junk in the 80s. so the situation was NOT different in 1992-93.
  
  also I think u have not heard all the songs of chinna maapillai, walter vetrivel. just because they wree not shown on sun tv 1000 times like mukkaala does'nt mean that they wre junk songs. have u listened to 'venilavu kodhipadhenna', a seduction number tuned in madhyamaavathi in chinna maapillai? or 'thoodhu selvathaaradi' in singaaravelan tuned in charukesi? these songs were not shown much on TV but they are much better than what IR or anyone else composes in the name of music.
  
  

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