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IR or ARR

Topic started by M.Anand (@ ihproxy1.proxy.lucent.com) on Tue Jan 18 01:03:04 EST 2000.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

hi all, I am Anand from bangalore and a new visitor to the tfm page. I am a great fan of both ARR and IR. I browsed through all the earlier threads on ARR and IR. It seems to me that there are quite a few anti ARRs out here.

Let me tell you something about IRs music. IRs music became popular and sounded different because he tried to bring in a westernization of Carnatic ragas in his songs. Even a dappanguthu was in Lathaangi or sivaranjani. That actually made the difference. Otherwise he is no great MD. One might argue that such a westernization or incorporation of a carnatic raga in a dappanguthu or jazz is something that demands great applause. But IR doesn't deserve that because, if u say u are tuning a song in a particular raagam, you have to bring out the nuances, the laya and bhaava of the raagam in to the song. Just traversing the swaras in the raagam here and there does not mean that u have tuned a song in that raagam. Ilayaraaja has done just that, a mere traversal through the swaras. In many places, there were apaswaras also. ARR has tuned very few songs based on Carnatic ragas but they were classics. For example Mettu podu in Anjali is a beautiful song in Ananda Bhairavi. He has brought out every nuance of the raagam in that song. Minsaara Kanna in padaiyappa is an excellent piece in vasantha. En mel vizhunda mazhai tuliye is again a beautiful piece in kaapi. A real mix of the east and west. That is what u call fusion. Ilayaraaja boasts of having composed songs in rare raagas like chala nattai, kanakangi etc. For example pani vizhum malar vanam in chala nattai is again a pure note traversal. There was no attempt to bring out the nuances in the raaga. So IR knew how to make songs sound good but ARR gives a fine polish to each and every one of his songs. IR composed music for 700 odd films. Hey Ram is his 785th film. Considering 7 songs per movie, he has tuned almost 5500 songs. Huge number indeed but hardly 5% of those songs are listenable others are 100% pure junk. But 99.9% of ARRs songs are listenable and they are also good numbers. What do you say about this?

Regards,
Anand

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: Athi (@ ip205.schiller-park9.il.pub-ip.psi.net) on: Mon Apr 17 01:09:15 EDT 2000
  
  I think I have to clarify a few things.
  
  1. My intention of listening to ARR's music
  is not to find fault but invariably I
  end up doing that and this is not because
  I listen to IR's music. FYI, I have listened
  to so many compositions of MSV, KVM in tamil,
  hindi compositions of RDB etc.
  2. And in this thread, I have never ever
  made a comparison between IR and ARR.
  
  I was also disgusted at the way people
  writing all sorts of things about IR when
  they wanted to write about any musical
  defect of ARR. As someone has mentioned earlier,
  some self proclaimed musicians have taken over
  many important threads in this web page and have started making personal attacks on anyone who thinks in any other way than them.
  
  In the BGM thread, I mentioned about
  the (lack of noteworthy) BGM in ARR's
  movies. I have seen 2,3 of his famous
  movies like Indian, Roja to write about
  that. In Roja, he lifted from Oman as
  someone has mentioned.
  
  Just because people don't know how to
  express it in musical form,doesn't mean that
  the self proclaimed musicians have to pounce
  on them for writing anything other than what
  they expect.
  
  I think at the beginning of the thread,
  so much has been written against IR that
  it can't be compared with any of this. And
  whatever written in the beginning of this
  thread is a total misconception about IR's
  music and is an attempt to denigrate him
  while trying to glorify ARR. How is that
  acceptable?
  
  Did anyone notice what ARR has been
  mentioning in his interviews nowadays?
  That he has never copied from anyone till
  now. Nothing can be far from true than this.
  He will be hailed as the future of the music
  in this forum for that. I shudder to think
  what the future of the music will be in
  such prevaricator's hands. If he is still
  learning, he should not have so much
  arrogance.
  
  For the self proclaimed musicians, this
  may not look serious but when IR points
  out the defects in ARR's music, they will
  become furious about it. IR is well
  qualified musically to talk about this.
  
  Looks like this forum is not moderated
  anymore and is subject to the whims and
  fancies of a few people.
  
  Echo, I think you write in a much more
  refined way and don't resort to personal
  attacks and I don't think I will be hurt
  by anything that you will write. I may not
  agree with all that ofcourse.
  
  Athi
  
  
  
  
• From: srikanth (@ ttdslppp82.sttl.uswest.net) on: Mon Apr 17 01:19:28 EDT 2000
  
  I tried something but ended up like sounding a horn in deaf mans ears
  I am going to enjoy music as music, hear a good song....Kanamochi..........
  
  
  
  
• From: Athi (@ ip205.schiller-park9.il.pub-ip.psi.net) on: Mon Apr 17 01:23:38 EDT 2000
  
  Suresh,
  
  At around the same time that ARR made his
  debut, IR composed the symphony and his
  outlook towards tfm changed a lot. Also I
  think he was disappointed at
  the musical quality of albums churned out by
  ARR which started becoming hits and I guess
  that disenchantment started growing over a
  period of time. Also health reasons made
  him reduce his commitments.
  
  Have you gone to http://www.ilayaraaja.com ?
  
  There you will read more about his current
  plans and his future assignments. I think
  tfm is one of them but not the highest
  priority(rightly so when the taste of
  the public doesn't require any melody
  and meaning in the music). That is the
  reason all his nontfm compositions have
  been big hits in the 90s like in malayalam.
  
  Also we must remember that IR doesn't
  forget individuals who have forged a good
  relationship with him over a period of
  time and this is the reason for working
  with Keyar etc. Ofcourse Keyar's movies had some
  great songs and he is not so bad in
  picturization.
  
  Ofcourse IR had composed for 600+ movies
  when ARR made his debut and was finding
  tfm monotonous for his talent and abilities.
  
  Athi
  
  
• From: SRK (@ icache-3.doit.wisc.edu) on: Mon Apr 17 01:25:04 EDT 2000
  
  Suresh: I agree. IR grew too monotonous in the early 90s with the exception of a few movies. He had nearly 100 (movie) releases in 92-93 but very few were good songs. No wonder Roja came as a whiff of fresh air. But IR did change his style as soon as ARR entered the scene. His music became at the least more catchy, with movies like Avatharam, Priyanka, Vandhaal Vandhaal Rajakumari. Only after that (somewhere about the last couple of years) has he reached the bottom of his career. But the latest albums do hold out some hope.
  
  ARR also grew a bit monotonous with albums like Vande Mataram, but over the last year, he has really come back strongly with albums like ESK, Sangamam, AP and KKKK.
  
  I guess pop music is not IR's cup of tea while it is the bread and butter of ARR. IR should realize this and shift to classical (ICM and WCM) as soon as possible. He should revert to natural sounds (look at Guru, I think the only album over the last 5 years he recorded with original sounds, he didn't even spare Hey Ram!). Its absolutely futile following trends - he must set his own.
  
  
• From: irfan (@ dot.icn.state.ia.us) on: Mon Apr 17 01:36:53 EDT 2000
  
  Has kamal gone for ARR's music Yet ?
  What do u think is the reason ??
  
  
• From: Athi (@ ip205.schiller-park9.il.pub-ip.psi.net) on: Mon Apr 17 01:41:08 EDT 2000
  
  Looks like MR is going to flop again !
  
  See Rediff review of Alai Payuthe.
  
  http://www.rediff.com/entertai/2000/apr/15alai.htm
  
  MR will soon be seen directing television
  serials(with music by ARR ?!). Pity the man
  who introduced ARR, is on the verge of
  being eliminated.
  
  Athi
  
  
• From: Andham (@ 202.9.162.79) on: Mon Apr 17 03:02:54 EDT 2000
  
  Athi,were you personally humiliated by A.R.R.In that case try this.Get a photo of A.R.R. place it on yr pillow and punch him 250 times morning evening and night.But for musical taste pls pray to God.And maybe I.R.shd pray that he shd'nt get fans like Athi.
  
  
• From: eden (@ 202.54.71.133) on: Mon Apr 17 05:15:23 EDT 2000
  
  Athi!
  It's not mature to celebrate the failure of another person:-(
  
  Well, going by your logic, where are those who intro'd Raja? Haven't heard of Devaraj-Mohan any recently, not even of PA....
  
  
• From: suresh (@ dedicated-149.chn.vsnl.net.in) on: Mon Apr 17 06:29:50 EDT 2000
  
  Athi
  
  I'm surprised that someone whose whole family (well, almost) swear that they don't listen to ARR's or any other music "was disappointed at
  the musical quality of albums churned out by ARR which started becoming hits..". With my limited understanding of IR, I think part of the reason why IR failed to gauge the market trends and react accordingly was his total insularity. I don't think there are people who can go upto IR and tell him that a particular song or tune is bad or needs reworking. ARR is quite the contrary, he's open-minded to suggestions (or even inspirations as has been suggested:) and that brings in a certain amount of freshness.
  
  I will not comment on his future plans much beyond saying that they look like being too reactive. I also wouldn't agree with a pessimistic view that the taste of public doesn't require melody; from SAR's 'etho oru paattu' to IR's 'thaalatta varuvalo' to ARR's 'kannamoochi', ultimately a soft melody stands the test of time compared to the fast nos. Even in Malayalam, the dominant public taste is for soft, uncomplicated nos. as evidenced by all the recent blockbuster hits e.g.'Sallapam'. "Kaalapani" and "Guru", though critically acclaimed were never such big hits saleswise (added to the fact that the movies themselves were flops).
  Keyar, and good picturisation????
  
  SRK
  I second your opinion that IR must move from futile attempts to sound 'pop' and get onto his core classical strengths. Just listening to 'Muthu Nilave' in TIME makes me cringe; and that too, in an album that has a beauty like 'niram pirithu'..
  Nobody can force IR to compose against his wishes; if as Athi says, IR found TFM so monotonous, why didn't he cut down on his assignments and concentrate on few, but worthy films? How could he have missed out on Mahendran's (in the cans) film over a petty personal issue?
  
  As I write I'm listening to 'manathil enna ninaivugalo' and wonder where the musician that can give you goosepimples with a song 20 years old has gone? If I can make 4 wishes for IR, it would be to (1) junk all the synthetic stuff from his orchestration (or) hire better talent to handle it like ARR (2)focus on quality, not quantity: set a target of max 6-10 albums a year and concentrate on making each component of the album a fine product and (3) please desist from using his family members for playback, and finally a near-impossible (4) team up with VM...
  
  if wishes were horses...
  
  
• From: G.Ragavan (@ ppp-89-78.bng.vsnl.net.in) on: Mon Apr 17 06:41:56 EDT 2000
  
  ARR songs are popular. I agree. I too like this. I don't know why u r all comparing IR and ARR. Can we compare IR and MSV? This is also something like this. We are lucky to get good MDs for all the peiods. People of 50,60 and 70 could not imagined a period without MSV. 80's couldn't have imagined without IR. Now it is ARR. But, one thing, for better oppurtunities ARR may leave TF industry. ARR songs I like. But, they are not matching with the mood of the movies. In the forth comming years ARR will not be in TF industry.
  
  

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