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IR or ARR

Topic started by M.Anand (@ ihproxy1.proxy.lucent.com) on Tue Jan 18 01:03:04 EST 2000.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

hi all, I am Anand from bangalore and a new visitor to the tfm page. I am a great fan of both ARR and IR. I browsed through all the earlier threads on ARR and IR. It seems to me that there are quite a few anti ARRs out here.

Let me tell you something about IRs music. IRs music became popular and sounded different because he tried to bring in a westernization of Carnatic ragas in his songs. Even a dappanguthu was in Lathaangi or sivaranjani. That actually made the difference. Otherwise he is no great MD. One might argue that such a westernization or incorporation of a carnatic raga in a dappanguthu or jazz is something that demands great applause. But IR doesn't deserve that because, if u say u are tuning a song in a particular raagam, you have to bring out the nuances, the laya and bhaava of the raagam in to the song. Just traversing the swaras in the raagam here and there does not mean that u have tuned a song in that raagam. Ilayaraaja has done just that, a mere traversal through the swaras. In many places, there were apaswaras also. ARR has tuned very few songs based on Carnatic ragas but they were classics. For example Mettu podu in Anjali is a beautiful song in Ananda Bhairavi. He has brought out every nuance of the raagam in that song. Minsaara Kanna in padaiyappa is an excellent piece in vasantha. En mel vizhunda mazhai tuliye is again a beautiful piece in kaapi. A real mix of the east and west. That is what u call fusion. Ilayaraaja boasts of having composed songs in rare raagas like chala nattai, kanakangi etc. For example pani vizhum malar vanam in chala nattai is again a pure note traversal. There was no attempt to bring out the nuances in the raaga. So IR knew how to make songs sound good but ARR gives a fine polish to each and every one of his songs. IR composed music for 700 odd films. Hey Ram is his 785th film. Considering 7 songs per movie, he has tuned almost 5500 songs. Huge number indeed but hardly 5% of those songs are listenable others are 100% pure junk. But 99.9% of ARRs songs are listenable and they are also good numbers. What do you say about this?

Regards,
Anand

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: Neel (@ ts002d18.har-ct.concentric.net) on: Sat Apr 15 23:06:07 EDT 2000
  
  Srikanth, it was not meant to be a good word. I am sorry that it hurt you. I did not think that it was nice of a musician to repeatedly challenge ordinary listeners knowing very well that they can't speak music. They may not have a degree in music but they still have ears. I don't want to digress from the topic so I shall not elaborate any further. Please don't conclude that I hate ARR. I just don't like his songs that sound out of place and I won't listen to them the same way I won't listen to songs sung by IR because I don't like his singing voice.
  
  
• From: srikanth (@ ttdslppp82.sttl.uswest.net) on: Sat Apr 15 23:29:19 EDT 2000
  
  Neels., I gave the reason why I did that, I have been asking them for a valid reason in their wave length for the past 2 weeks, since they contiued their recycle theory, I took on them with my wavelength.
  
  I have been here for 2+ years now, i clearly know that you listen music for music.....so there is no rooms for conclusions...:))
  
  
  
• From: Neel (@ ts002d18.har-ct.concentric.net) on: Sat Apr 15 23:51:58 EDT 2000
  
  Srikanth, just a clarification. I am not Neels. I am Neel, different person.
  
  
• From: sabesan (@ ws-209-233-228-254.webvangroup.com) on: Sun Apr 16 01:53:45 EDT 2000
  
  no way Srinath.... iam 100% sure Pudhiya Mugam was a success movie (i don't know why it was a success but)..... cause i remember reading in many magazines, the praises for Suresh Menon for that movie.... and iam sure it ran for 100 days in chennai at that time...
  
  
• From: mottai (@ dot.icn.state.ia.us) on: Sun Apr 16 02:24:20 EDT 2000
  
  http://www.angelfire.com/sc/csuji/Panivilu.ram .........folks listen to this...you will know why ARR SUCKS ..and RAAja Rooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooolllllllllllllllllzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...;-)...
  
  
  
  
• From: mottai (@ dot.icn.state.ia.us) on: Sun Apr 16 02:33:20 EDT 2000
  
  http://www.angelfire.com/sc/csuji/Panivilu.ram......folks listen to this ....you will know why ARR sucksssssssssssssss big time....Raaaaaaaaaaajjjjaaaaaaaaaa rooooooooooooollllllzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz......I simply love you da motta..:-)..
  
  
• From: Krish (@ 124.philadelphia-01-02rs.pa.dial-access.att.net) on: Sun Apr 16 03:34:04 EDT 2000
  
  To me "Chinna chinna aaasai" sounded very IR-ish. It was similar (not a copy)to songs like "Chinna Chinna Vannakuyil" in Mouna Raagam, The rain song by SJanaki in "Punnagai Mannan", a Sjanaki song in "Idyathai Thirudathe". The humming in Chinna China Aaasai is also very similar to the ones used by Raja in a lot of movies before (uchi Vagundhudethu, Idahyam Pogudhe etc.)
  
  I also felt that there was nothing new in the Roja songs. Raja has done tons of songs like Kadha Rojave before.
  
  Similarly, "veerapandi kottaiyele" song in Thiruda Thiruda was similar to "ottam konda raasave" from Pagalil Oru Nilavu.
  
  
• From: Krish (@ 124.philadelphia-01-02rs.pa.dial-access.att.net) on: Sun Apr 16 03:34:45 EDT 2000
  
  To me "Chinna chinna aaasai" sounded very IR-ish. It was similar (not a copy)to songs like "Chinna Chinna Vannakuyil" in Mouna Raagam, The rain song by SJanaki in "Punnagai Mannan", a Sjanaki song in "Idyathai Thirudathe". The humming in Chinna China Aaasai is also very similar to the ones used by Raja in a lot of movies before (uchi Vagundhudethu, Idahyam Pogudhe etc.)
  
  I also felt that there was nothing new in the Roja songs. Raja has done tons of songs like Kadha Rojave before.
  
  Similarly, "veerapandi kottaiyele" song in Thiruda Thiruda was similar to "ottam konda raasave" from Pagalil Oru Nilavu.
  
  
• From: srikanth (@ ttdslppp82.sttl.uswest.net) on: Sun Apr 16 11:32:12 EDT 2000
  
  guys,
  we all still remember, china china aasai was called as Nursery ryhms by some well known raja fans, now they claim it as raja's tune...
  so what do we conclude from here. ?
  
  
  
• From: LR (@ 203.197.205.170) on: Sun Apr 16 12:38:04 EDT 2000
  
  Ambleen,
  
  Chinna chinna Asai doesn't at all sound like IR's. If you are bent upon picking up one strain of guitar, or any other instrument and compare it with some other MD, to look for similarity then that is deliberate. ROJA songs were definitely new and that is the reason they became instant hits all over India.
  ARR has redefined film music. In fact now if listen to the music by other MD, you find so much similarities to ARR's style - because they are adopting to this new style.
  
  LR
  
  
• From: chandy (@ ws025038.coba.siu.edu) on: Sun Apr 16 13:16:42 EDT 2000
  
  Krish,
  
  If you notice your examples of chinna-chiina-sounding like songs, most of them are set of same ambience and situation (solo female song, general dancing by enthued heroine). Chinna chinna aasai had a very simple tune, with excellent interludes. May be, the humming voice of ARR in that song might have some resemblance to prior hummings, the placement of the humming and its jelling with interludes was quite awesome... Every time i listen to chinna chinna aasai, it sounds soo refreshing. As I said earlier, the very reason for the song's success was its break from past..
  
  chandy
  
  
• From: chandy (@ ws025038.coba.siu.edu) on: Sun Apr 16 13:18:09 EDT 2000
  
  krish :
  
  Raja has done tons of songs like Kadha Rojave before
  
  I would appreciate if you could substantiate your statement with some examples and also explanations about how those songs are "like kadhal rojave"
  
  chandy
  
  
• From: srikanth (@ ttdslppp82.sttl.uswest.net) on: Sun Apr 16 13:55:54 EDT 2000
  
  btw:
  China china asai is in 2/4 beat
  
  all the rains songs of raja are in 6/8 beat cycles,
  (mouna ragam, geethanjali and punagai mannan )
  so i dont not know how they are the same...please explain...
  
  also if you slow down a 6/8 song, you will something like Atho antha paravai pola vazavedum, or enai theriyuma nan sirithu pazgum rasigan...
  
  if you increase the speed for these 2 songs, you will get the above three....rain songs...
  
  Please tellme a song like kadal rojave...only think i know is raja has done a movie by this name, period...thats all.
  
  
• From: Naveen (@ pppa89-resaledavenport2-5r7231.saturn.bbn.com) on: Sun Apr 16 14:07:01 EDT 2000
  
  I think people have forgotten about the junk songs IR had composed for 2 or 3 years before the arrival of Rehman. Anyone could easily find out how careless he was. Definitely Roja songs gave
  a shock to everyone. LR and Chandy have already given the reasons.
  After a long break, many people started buying Tamil Cassettes again. That time, when I appreciated ARR's music quality, my friends were saying 'This fellow won't stick on for a long time etc.. etc..' Those guys are still saying the same thing again & again... But right now ARR is in good shape.
  ARR will get into the same problem, only if he shows carelessness in his music. But till date, he has taken lot of effort for every song. He himself knows very well, that he should'nt compose something monotonous.
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 129.252.22.221) on: Sun Apr 16 16:11:15 EDT 2000
  
  Krish,
  Whether chinna chinna aasai resembles any other IR song in terms of melody/tune.. i dunno. But definitely the song sounded totally different and it was like a breath of fresh air when it came.
  
  I think most of it has to do with the presentation rather than the actual tune itself. the 'feel' of the song was entirelydifferent. it is the way ARR does his mixing, digital recording,
  usage of synth effectively etc. these are the things that make his songs distinct.
  
  SPBs voice was crystal clear in kaadhal rojaave and it was definitely a new feeling for music listeners.
  
  even if ARR copies an IR song 100%, I can still make out that it is ARRs song and not IRs song just by the 'feel' of it. its precisely for this reason that he became a sort of liek trendsetter.
  
  Naveen,
  'I think people have forgotten about the junk songs IR had composed for 2 or 3 years before the arrival of Rehman.'
  
  Dont blame ARRs success solely on IR. it is quite untrue. ARRs songs sounded different, catchy and fresh and that was the reason he catapaulted to fame. it was not because of the fact that IR produced junk songs. look at the foll songs:
  
  1. ennulle ennulle - 1993
  2. aasai adhigam - 1993
  3. nalam vaazha and other songs from marupadiyum - 1993
  4. kaadhoram lolaakku - 1993 - major hit
  5. raasave chitherumbu - 1993 - major hit
  
  in fact all the films that wre released in pongal 1993 were major hits. they were kovil kalai, walter vetrivel, marupadiyum, chinna maapillai and thirumathi pazhanichaamy. all had the music of IR.
  
  when ARR came up with thiruda thiruda raja came up with kalaignan and veera. veera - the last film of rajni in which all songs were hits.
  
  it is only after 1997, that i feel raja has not produced his best. it might be because of various reasons,i dunno once again.
  
  people just realised that ARRs music was different and it appealed more to the younger generation who form the core of the audience that buy cassettes. instead of listening slow WC based classical melodies like 'ennulle ennulle' youngsters preferred to dance to chinan chinna aasai and the like. it is not IRs fault or it is'nt rahman's either.
  
  
• From: Suresh (@ dedicated-149.chn.vsnl.net.in) on: Mon Apr 17 00:52:01 EDT 2000
  
  Vijay
  
  If you see the list of movies you've given, only 'Marupadiyum' was a wholesome album with good songs (in fact, excellent). All the other films have at best a solo hit with the rest being pure junk. That's precisely why I think the saleabilility of IR started declining. Maybe he was plain uninspired or he was overworking, you could see that in most films, he was content to give one or (max) 2 good nos. and fill the rest of the album with mediocre stuff. For an average IR fan, that was the time they stopped buying an IR album unless it came from a banner you trusted was good (Balu Mahendra, Fazil etc.), and waited to record the stray good no. after some listening. In fact, for most of the 90's this has been the trend of IR films with few exceptions - mostly in Malayalam.
  
  If you've noticed ARR's entry with Roja, it was just after the time that IR had also given inspired films such as Thalapathi and Guna. But IR himself eroded his brand value by signing meaningless run-of-the-mill movies that just had no scope for good music. So in the clutter that resulted, even a Marupadiyum was lost in such mediocre stuff like Kovil Kaalai and Thirumathi Pazhanichamy. So over a period of time, there was no exclusivity to IR as he spanned the gamut from the absurd to the good. I remember when I used to frequent Prasad Studios during that time, my bliss at hearing a good recording in the morning would turn to horror when an absolute no-winner was tuned in the afternoon.
  
  When a Maniratnam or Suresh Menon wanted to make movies they thought were "different" and fresh, they naturally had to look for a new sound, a fresh approach to music. ARR fitted the bill perfectly, and I think it's blasphemous to say that Roja sounded anything like IR's music. I listened to the uncut soundtrack months before the album was released, and instantly knew that IR had serious competition. ARR pioneered the art of 'packaging' in Indian films where he treated each of his albums as a 'product' and devoted his all to its finish. Naturally, to all filmmakers with a marketing bent of thought, ARR was a person they could vibe better in the process of movie-making as a business. From cover credits to chorus singers and instrumentalists to introduction of fresh singers, ARR kept the excitement alive with each release. It's a matter of dispute though that many feel that his freshness has also evaporated, and he's beginning to sound jaded.
  
  When Roja was followed by Pudhiya Mugam and Thiruda Thiruda (which I consider as ARR's best, and possibly one of the top 5 'complete albums' in Tamil films ever), IR could have introspected a bit, and charted a different course. Instead, he chose to sign mindless number of films with all and sundry that he started to sound stale and jaded in comparison to ARR, even an odd Adityan or Vidyasagar. I would record the 90's a period of systemic decline in IR's output. Despite some masterpieces during this time, the overall impression one got was of a maestro past his prime.
  
  The recent past has seen a sign of resurgence in IR's music, but I hope that he doesn't follow the same reckless path and do films that are pre-destined duds. But given the indications that he's signed up with Keyaar (not again! He killed an absolute beauty "Unnai vida matten" in Vanaja Girija with such stupid direction) and Manivannan and the likes, I'm sceptical.....
  
  Still a HCIRF..:(
  
  

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