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Raga of song please

Topic started by Gopal Prasad (@ greed.cs.umass.edu) on Sat May 17 07:42:45 EDT 1997.
All times in EDT +9:30 for IST.

Take a look: Upcoming "Raga based film songs" Database. Add the missing songs and help us complete it!

List | Indian Classical Music Forum

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: Jeyaram (@ 202.54.35.53) on: Wed Aug 23 13:17:16 EDT 2000
  
  Hi all,
  
  I am not able to be in touch with you very frequently.
  
  Some of the Tilang numbers, as I could remember are -
  
  1. Azhagan Muruganidam asai...- PS - Pancha varnakili-MSV- TR
  2. Nilavu Vandhu aadumo - PS- Raman Ethnai Ramanadi- MSV
  3. Muthuppal Sirippallavo - TMS / PS - Some MGR movie - MSV
  4. Nallador veenai saithe... - SPB - V. Niram Sivappu - MSV
  5. Idhu Ungal Veetu Kilithan ... - Vani - Sankar Saleem Simon - MSV ( or is it Bhahudari ? But, i think it is not pure 1 raga)
  6.Malligai Mullai Poopandal...- Vani - Mannavan
  Vandhanadi ?? - MSV . ( This is a very wonder composition where Vani's skills are fully exploited).
  
  Unnai Onru Ketpen.. from Pudhia Paravai... Isn't it HariKhamboji? I have listened so in an interview.
  
  I am not sure about IR numbers in Tilang. ( Ofcourse, Manadil Urudi Vendum is tilang).
  
  Regarding, 'Yamuna Nadhi Inge..' , I feel that it has predominant traces of Khambodhi. Can some one checkout ?
  
  
  
• From: ravi68 (@ 12.28.151.137) on: Wed Aug 23 13:55:45 EDT 2000
  
  IR..well nobody is venturing out on this Abheri stuff.:-), barring Rajesh.Does he have a point? I think we can have two conclusions to this .
  
  1.Original Abheri has D1 and somewhere in the course of time the original Abheri has been lost( They can co-exist like Hindolam and Suddha Hindolam).Abheri and K.Devaghandari can be differentiated on the Ga(am i right?)Dhanshree/Bhimplas are vakra scales.But i believe the Dikshithar raga system is pretty clear on that( Veenabheri with Abheri and Panchaashatpeedroopini in KDevaghandari)
  
  2.Forget it. What is in a name? Sit back and enjoy. But mind you..u still owe me an explanation for the Veenabheri...:-).And do let me know if the tillana in Dhanshree is on the net rendered with d1? The songstats research is a wild goose chase!!!
  
  
• From: IR (@ 38.220.167.5) on: Wed Aug 23 15:09:12 EDT 2000
  
  ravi ::)) you are absolutely right about your observations...
  
  I digged up some info on MD's usage of Abheri and apparently it is not MSS who is singing Abheri with a dha1 - it is MD that has composed Vinabhri with a dha1... I do not want to venture into this a lot... There is another forum for discussing the technical aspects of ragas... but just want to say that Dikshithar followed a different scheme of melakarthas and it has been re-compiled after his days based on venkatamahi's classification of melas... may be Abheri, as you pointed out originally started off with dha1...
  
  But, in contemporary days, abheri uses only dha2 ...
  
  Dhanashree Swati thirunaal thillana uses Dha2...
  
  
• From: IR (@ 38.220.167.5) on: Wed Aug 23 15:23:03 EDT 2000
  
  wanted to add to the above - based on the current melakartha scheme - Aabheri is a janya of Karaharapriya - which goes to say that dha2 is what Aabheri should have ...
  
  
• From: ravi68 (@ 12.28.151.137) on: Wed Aug 23 15:25:47 EDT 2000
  
  Well thanks for the effort IR, but let me know of ur technical feedback at ravi68@altavista.com.i eagerly lookforward to that:-).I understand Papanasam Sivan too purposefully created a krithi with d1 ,i neither rembember nor have have i heard.Confirm on that please.Do mail me and confirm on Rajesh's observation.
  
  
• From: ravi68 (@ ) on: Wed Aug 23 15:40:53 EDT 2000
  
  Sorry IR..if u place Abheri with d2 in Karaharapriya as per Venkatamakhi were do u place the Abheri with d1(natabhairavi?).Do mail..I think our responses were simultaneous!!!It is not fair to continue this on this chat forum....
  
  
• From: aruLaracan (@ 134.124.160.10) on: Wed Aug 23 16:00:50 EDT 2000
  
  ravi,
  
  it is also unfair to go private and deprive us of the good "arguement" you two have. please continue at least in the forumhub.
  
  
• From: ravi68 (@ 12.28.151.137) on: Wed Aug 23 16:37:12 EDT 2000
  
  Well Arul u are right.We should continue it in the form hub!!!
  
  
• From: IR (@ 63.27.163.163) on: Thu Aug 24 10:26:36 EDT 2000
  
  Some findings on Abheri!
  
  Well, thanks for making me take the time to trace the history of Abheri and learn something for myself :)
  
  Well known Musicologist, P. Sambamurthy says that Abheri is a derivative of the 22nd mela Karaharapriya... It is a Bhashanga raga since it takes the Suddha dhaivatha in the phrase "p d P". MD has composed Vinabheri in this raga. But that raga takes only Sudhdha Dhaivatha throughout... He also says that Nagumomu is a master piece in this raga .. and calls this krithi a crystal of Abheri... Nagumomu takes only dha2 and so do the other krithis composed in Abheri...
  
  I tried to get info on the Vinabheri krithi and I found that MD has classified Abheri as a janya of Natabhairavi (20) and this makes sense to me as "Abheri" according to him is without dha2... But Thyagarajar, who was a contemporary composer, has used the same raga with only dha2.... I have never heard anybody sing Abheri with both dha1 and dha2... infact these days nobody sings Abheri with dha1 except this Vinabheri and a few other original compositions with dha1.... including the Papanasam Sivan composition
  
  I am beginning to think that probably Karnataka Devagandhari and Abheri existed as 2 separate ragas. Bhimplas (derivative of That 1) and Dhanashri (derivative of That 10) are the Hindhusthani equivalents of Abheri and Karnataka Devagandhari and may have differed in some prayogas... Over the years may be all four ragas got mixed up and are now considered to be synonymous... and are using the chathusruthi dhaivatham version....
  
  
  
  
• From: IR (@ 63.22.97.121) on: Thu Aug 24 10:51:51 EDT 2000
  
  the papanasam sivan composition is Kandha Vandharul... in Abheri...
  
  
• From: ravi68 (@ 12.28.151.137) on: Thu Aug 24 11:49:07 EDT 2000
  
  Well that was a marvellous research by u IR.. Thank u so much.U have taken us all down a steep learning curve......Thanks once again for the time and effort spent................
  
  
• From: IR (@ 63.38.37.140) on: Thu Aug 24 12:35:27 EDT 2000
  
  ravi thanks to you for making me take the time and learning things this way is by far the best ::))
  
  
• From: Deepa (@ 165.91.176.172) on: Fri Aug 25 04:05:38 EDT 2000
  
  looks like the Abheri Dha has triggered a major discussion, that was a lot of new info on this subject, thanx to all of u, esp IR.
  I dint know about the existence of Vinabheri, if possible could u send me the site that has the song by MSS and the discussion forum site about technical aspects??
  
  As far as I knew, Abheri and Karnataka Devagandhari were two names of the same raga, as is typical of the Thyagaraja style and Dhikshithar style respectively, this is similar to Shanmukhapriya and Chaamaram which are essentially the same raga.
  
  I had gathered that Bhimplas and dhanasree were the lighter versions, like Bhimplas typically would have S N1 D2 P M1 G2 R2 N1... S
  and Dhanasree at least in Swathi Thirunal's thillana has a lot of prayogams like G R S N P...
  not seen in abheri...
  
  There is another very authentic info that Nagumomu actually has a Dha1, it was just an attempt by an eminent singer of those days, to change it to a Dha2 and apparently that became TOO popular as it came out on one of those gramophone disks and that kind of got in vogue.
  
  
• From: Vidhya (@ 24.128.190.210) on: Fri Aug 25 10:50:53 EDT 2000
  
  jeyaram: Unnai Onru Ketpen.. from Pudhia Paravai is HariKhambodhi.
  "yamunai nadhi" - looks like shankaraabharaNam.
  
  
• From: ravi68 (@ 12.28.151.137) on: Fri Aug 25 12:00:11 EDT 2000
  
  1.Deepa, It was you who triggered off this debate, by making an innocuous comment for "Pachhai kiligal" and thanks to u. Please go to the following site to hear the MSS rendition of Veenabheri.
  http://www.musicindiaonline.com/cgi-bin/music.cgi?Mode=List&Code=00000H&s=19&e=39
  And who is this singer who attempted "Nagumonmu" with d2(?) first? Per IR the original composition itself is in d2........
  2.IR there is another unheard song of Dikshithar "Kayrohanesam..."(Abheri or KDevagandhari). Could you kindly find out and let me know..on that?
  3. Well it was a sort of SunTV style Abheri vaaram. A suggestion to everyone here. Probably ahead of a week we can declare raga(s) for the week,so that the film songs, the krithis and the technical aspects if any can be contributed by all the folks out here.At the end of e week the suggestions/discussions can be summarized and then they can be added up to the "Upcoming Raaga based film song database".Somebody may kindly take up for lead managing this task..Ideas anybody? MS/RR/IR/Silkfort/Rajesh/Vaasi/Jeyaram/Vidhya/Deepa...everybody..please. Surprisingly we have started out alphabetically right.."Aabheri"..!!
  
  
  
• From: ravi68 (@ 12.28.151.137) on: Fri Aug 25 12:05:17 EDT 2000
  
  Typo....Chennu i inadvertently left u out..its for u too:-)
  
  
• From: Vidhya (@ 204.164.111.130) on: Fri Aug 25 13:03:18 EDT 2000
  
  Ravi : U may find this site interesting.
  http://www.kmronline.com/public/
  
  
• From: Jeyaram (@ 202.54.43.83) on: Fri Aug 25 13:41:16 EDT 2000
  
  Hi Ravi68 and Others,
  
  Few Films songs I could think of in Aabheri are -
  
  1. Palamuthir Solaiyile... - PS - MSV - Kuzhathiyum Deivamum
  2. Poo Malayil... - TMS / PS - MSV - Ooty Varai Uravu (Or is it Bhimplas ?)
  3. Kadhal Vanile... - SPB / SJ - IR - Rasayya
  4. Ragangal 16.... - SPB --MSV - Thillu Mullu
  
  I am not sure which one's are really Aabheri. I don't know much technically. Pl check out.
  
  Jeyaram
  
  
• From: IR (@ 38.220.167.5) on: Fri Aug 25 13:50:49 EDT 2000
  
  ravi - Kayarohanesam is a MD krithi in devagandharam (apparently Dikshitha's way of calling K. Devagandhari :)
  
  Panchashatpeetaroopini is the other one in Devagandharam...
  
  This is opening up another can of worms... is devagandharam = karnataka devagandhari and do we have proof ::))
  
  Nagumomu according to books and musicologists and belief of some musicians is composed with dha1... now the question is what do we believe in/who we trust... this again is an unsolved mystery in Carnatic Music... ::))
  
  
• From: Rajesh (@ 199.168.32.5) on: Fri Aug 25 15:20:07 EDT 2000
  
  Hi all !
  
  a small question of whether "Pachai killigal" is Ananda bhairavi or Abheri, resulted in three pages of tfm forum !!! really exciting !
  
  i couldn't participate well, as i am not very good in technical aspects of raagas. but, anyway i got a lot of info about Abheri. thanks to IR, ravi and deepa.
  
  Before winding up the discussion in Abheri, please clarify this.
  
  1. Abheri can be now treated as a janya of Karaharapriya, with a Dha2. Also, we can name some exceptional songs like Venabheri, Pachai killigal, Rakkamma kaya thattu...as Abheri with a Dha1 in avarohanam.
  
  But, do we have any raaga like
  
  S G2 M1 P N2 S : S N2 D1 P M1 G2 R2 S ?
  
  

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