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Mumbai Moham - What do Tamils put up with the bad and mediocre singing of Mumbai artistes?

Topic started by Indhu (@ 24.76.127.63) on Sat Dec 1 22:44:28 EST 2001.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

This is my question....Udit Narayan, Hariharan, Sadhana Sargam, Kavitha Krishnamurti,Sonu Nigam - All sing in Tamil. But their Tamil is really very bad. Are Tamils deaf, tolerant, or have no PERUMAI in their own language? Is there really a shortage of good, tamil-speaking singers? Or is this really Tamil Inferiority Complex?

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: Fliflo (@ 130.203.169.132) on: Sat Dec 8 13:32:06 EST 2001
  
  "If this topic disgusts/dismays/disgruntles someone so such a degree then why do they bother with it in the first place? If this is indeed petty, pointless, prejudiced - one surely has the option of moving on to other more productive threads/discussions. Why not leave us to our own "biased" devices?"
  
  Well, the title was attractive with subsequent divergence of the discussion spreading over tamil culture and other related issues. I jumped in with a great idea of learning from others contributions. Indeed, there were some. However, the chariot seem to be heading no where with the "idea horses" seemed to pulling towards a pointless direction. I put my humble opinion that the discussion seeing the thread attempting to walk on a delicate line with more complex related issues have been left-over. Lot of logical, reasonable questions remain unanswered yet and no body seems to be interested in worrying about them. My only point was all the mutual-dependent factors have to be equally considered and everybody's valid opinion had to taken into account of. My request to the concerned people just do not isolate tamil and involve in your issue as a baseline issue. If you don't like HH, Suckwinder singing and others just write to them directly saying "Hey look here you have made mistakes in such and such lines. We do not like that, give a chance to correct" rather than saying "Hey, you do not have the right to enter into our area" kind a aggressive statements. remember what happens if every one adopts this policy. "Americans say hey Indians speak "funny english' hey don't ask them to speak kinda attitude".
  
  When "tamil" issue is spoken out I was quite thinking about other major forgotten issues and enlighted some the crucial issues where no body seemed to be concerened of. I am closely known to some of them and I know still how they live. Whatever don't take "tamil language/culture" as a weapon for these petty, entertainment issues. I am happy that these guys from other language bother to learn (for the sake of money is another issue). Consider the foremost fact that "tamil is not grown (but actually spoiled) by this medium".
  
  
  
• From: WhyNot (@ 203.24.100.133) on: Sat Dec 8 14:22:40 EST 2001
  
  I agree Fliflo. We should be happy when others learn to speak our language and be abit more accomodating with pronounciation. I believe Tamil has too long a history and a widespread use to be destroyed by mispronounciation of a few in a few Tamil songs (compared to the 100s that are churned out every year). %-wise, there's probably nothing much to be concerned about.
  BTW, I may not be too popular for saying this, but I've absolutely loved Sukhwinder's voice for some time and was overjoyed when I heard he was singing in Tamil songs. :-)
  
  
• From: Counter (@ 208.134.115.240) on: Sat Dec 8 15:37:34 EST 2001
  
  Children, stop whining.
  
  
• From: Fliflo (@ 130.203.164.4) on: Sat Dec 8 16:44:53 EST 2001
  
  Counter;
  
  Punnaakku. Unna mattum enna panrathunne theriyale. Vennai.
  
  Unakku 10 paisakku soodu, soranai illaya? Athu sari! athu irunthiruntha nee ethukku intha maaathiri vara.
  
  
• From: KS (@ 166.44.247.11) on: Sat Dec 8 18:45:15 EST 2001
  
  Fliflo,
  
  Agreed Tamil pronunciation/language is much wider an issue than just purely TFM. But then, it would not be possible to look at the problem in all its totality by a not-so-like-minded-group-of-confident-knowledgeable-intelligent-individualistic individuals (at least, until now!). And this TFM DF is certainly not the place to take up a task of that magnitude. It is not that we don’t see your broad-minded vision at the problem in its totality, seriously. But let us accept that we cannot take it up in its entirety. What we are trying is to see if we can do something about the current state of affairs w.r.t. Tamil pronunciation/language in TFM.
  
  This could be analogous to the current situation in US – just because the economy is poor doesn’t make a software programmer switch to finance/accounts or whatever field that is more closely associated to what the actual solution could be to the problem in its entirety, if at all, one single action could provide the required solution. The software programmer can only do his part honestly, on both professional and personal fronts, and hope for the best.
  
  There are many problems that cannot be handled in their entirety by a single group or organisation. Someone has to start on a smaller note with the hope that it would trigger off similar actions and lead to a collective solution. If not solve, at least, it would help in delaying the aggravation of the problem.
  
  That is what Indhu and others are trying to do. Firstly, is Tamil pronunciation/language in TFM of concern today? If no, in all likelihood, this thread will not make sense to you. If yes, we, as TFM DFers, can certainly do our collective best about this issue within the given scope of TFM and this DF. Besides this, all of us are free to do our best within our individual capacity outside this DF – let us not discuss it here…at least for now. Already, Indhu and others have made a few suggestions that could possibly result in action. As TFM DFers, what we need is a significant (though not necessarily to start with, but certainly preferred to be more effective) group of people to act as a task force, power, and energy for this cause. Will you be part of it? Can you add strength to it?
  
  I think some are eager to know what the action item(s) would be before making a commitment. But then, lets take it up in stages. That is what even others were trying to do. But, probably, not putting it down explicitly seems to have caused some confusions/problems/arguments. I will put down some possible stages with the hope of providing more clarity, resulting in more positive/agreeable discussions. Of course, at any later stage anybody would have the option of opting out for any/no reason(s). Any corrections/improvements are welcome.
  
  1) Do you feel the need to voice concern over the Tamil pronunciation/language in TFM now? (This could just be a Yes or No).
  
  2) What is it that we should condemn? These are some concerns where we need to arrive at an agreement:
  (i) Mumbai/non-Tamil singers singing bad and mediocre Tamil.
  (ii) Tamil singers singing bad and mediocre Tamil.
  (iii) Lack of promotion of local/native talent
  (iv) Foreign accent in TF songs.
  
  Do we condemn all these? (Could be fundamental for some but just to be more explicit). Or, are we taking just a few of these? Some may need to compromise/cooperate here to help arrive at an agreement (which isn’t bad, but in fact, be of help for a start-up):) Given the scope, let us exchange views on this with a positive approach. I’m very optimistic that we can arrive at an agreement that will get us going.
  
  3) Having reached an agreement, what action do we take? The action taken should give the cause some publicity and trigger in reaching wider audience. As Indhu had suggested earlier, looks like going to popular newspapers/journals/magazines would help. During this stage, we can discuss other possible actions and decide accordingly. We should also decide how critical or subtle we should be. On the personal front, we can even stop buying selective CDs/cassettes.
  
  This could be a long drawn battle. It can be on many fronts – official (newspapers, mags, etc), personal (stop buying some CDs/cassettes), diplomatic (our people conveying to their contacts in TF industry). Some of it will be visible and some invisible (like MD/singers/producers/directors becoming more aware of this dislike and changing accordingly). Slowly, but nevertheless, we will bring them to justice. (Yengeyoooo kaetta maadhiri irukkaa!:))
  
  After all, it is a cause worth it. Isn’t it?
  
  (ps: ayyaa/ammaa, vekkatha vittu, maanatha vittu yedho theriyaama public forumla vulareetten. maanaththa kaapaathungo:(((()
  
  
• From: KS (@ 166.44.246.93) on: Sat Dec 8 20:24:04 EST 2001
  
  stages = phases
  
  
• From: Indhu (@ 24.76.127.63) on: Sat Dec 8 20:28:18 EST 2001
  
  That was very well put, KS. Many thanks. I cannot speak for others, but let me assure you that I will give your recommendations due thought and formulate my reply to you this weekend. Please be patient, and I will certainly get back to you. I am sure other people who believe, action (however feeble and modest) is better than apathy. We do seem to have a problem. And somehow we seem to underestimate the influence of popular culture - both positive and negative. We can evaluate what our first step should be next week. Yes, this is a small and insignificant measure in the larger scheme of things. But it is also a start towards something.
  
  I also await Fliflo new thread that deals with the wealth of tamil culture down the ages. I am sure I will not be the only person who will benefit from the contributions to that page. Will you be starting one soon, Fliflo? That can be a way of addressing the Macro issues - which, I believe, you are suitably equipped to do. Many thanks, Indhu
  
  
• From: kiru (@ 66.122.213.152) on: Sat Dec 8 21:55:01 EST 2001
  
  Indhu ..more power to you !!others who dont think the issues is 'no big deal' or actually think this kind of pronounciation is 'kinda cool' feel free to immediately takeup your fav. hobby like hiking :) Just ..just dont annoy the heck out of the serious souls.
  Per Eden's suggestion, I do think NagaS is the best or atleast first best bet we have to kick up a storm on this issue. I dont even mind bribing that guy to write an article on this issue :) Come on folks ..the lyrics/pronounciation is too bad I just cannot get myself to buy any albums..Please dont force me to listen to Jazz/WCM all the time :) They (Jazz) will be singing about how their boyfriend should peel them a grape or the WCM composer will be playing a counterpoint for the 101th piccolo flute or whatever :)
  (I mean I feel culturally out of place with other forms of music at times seriously)
  
  
• From: allsenses (@ 158.252.112.12) on: Sat Dec 8 22:58:15 EST 2001
  
  this is called assimilation. pls be patient
  
  
• From: Fliflo (@ 130.203.162.49) on: Sun Dec 9 09:22:24 EST 2001
  
  KS;
  
  "ayyaa/ammaa, vekkatha vittu, maanatha vittu yedho theriyaama public forumla vulareetten"
  
  Ayya, neenge ularinaalum unmaiyaithaan kotuveenga polirukku. I enjoyed reading your posting. Busy week end, lets go up the hill later (week days).
  
  
  
  
• From: suresh (@ 202.88.155.34) on: Sun Dec 9 13:07:21 EST 2001
  
  Indhu, I think "Mumbai Moham" is a bit misleading when we're dealing with the larger issue of bad diction. As I see it, there are 2 clearly identifiable sub-trends in this
  
  1) NORTH SINGERS WITH NO CLUE OF THE LANGUAGE - Udit, Sukhwinder, Sadhana, et al - who don't have a clue about the language they're singing in, and yet are widely patronised. This cannot always be reduced to just a MD's preference; for instance, Vijay might think that an Udit voice lends him more style than if he were to act for SPB's voice that he feels had been part of the earlier generation. Here the actor is big enough to influence the singer's selection (with the honorouble exception of ARR, and IR perhaps), so there's no point in trashing the MD
  
  I think that very few MDs except ARR today can run roughshod over the others and use the singer for a controversial choice. For example, when ARR used Udit for Muthu's "Kulu valleyle", I'm sure it was not done on Rajini's or KSR's insistence. In contrast, maybe HJ was forced by the producer/director to use Roop Kumar Rathod for Minnale's "Venmathi". But here, VM, given his relatively higher stature could easily have put his foot down and had a SPB Charan or even Harish sing this song without losing out on the youthful tinge that the director might have wanted to suit Madhavan's projected image. He could have, if he was a conscientious guy, but then.......
  
  2) LOCAL SINGERS AFFECTED BY THE "STYLE" SYNDROME - The more ironic trend is the way the younger brigade of locals - ARR, YSR, KR, Tippu, etc. - sing thamizh in a way that makes you think that maybe they're addressing a niche market totalling not more than 10,000 kids in Chennai and other metros besides the 2nd generation kids of thamizh families abroad.
  
  This I think is purely a 'stylish' issue, where a trend is perpetuated over a period of time because it's reinforced to conform to and identify a particular hep, youth, neo-western feel. Over a period of time, such trends gather a certain momentum and become de rigeur.To the extent that the guy in Udumalaipettai thinks this is how the city-types/NRI kids would be speaking, leading to the creation of a role model sub-consciously.
  
  Listen to the "paachai, paachaiyai kelvigal" from 12B. I think the whole crop - Jeeva (director), VM, HJ, and the assorted singers - must be banished to Kandahar never to return, but VM must be singled out for an expose as being just the fraud as many other celebrated thamizh-kaavalan's of our land.
  
  IMO, these guys are more guilty than the Udit's who would possibly never be able to make the comparison of good vs. bad thamizh. IR's thamizh chevai could've reached a logical conclusion only if his kids could sing tolerable, if not suthamana thamizh. That their diction is so poor despite growing in T.Nagar and being reared by parents in a non-english milieu is symptomatic of a larger malaise in our society.
  
  A Malgudi Subha or a Mathangi did not come into singing from Bonn or Detroit, or needed to be tortured, to inflict such crass language. The sheer perseverance of non-native singers of yesteryears - PBS, PS, SJ, SPB, KJY, etc. - to shed their accents paints these new crop of singers in shades of black. Why did the thamizh-devoted duo of Thangar Bachan and IR have to have Sadhana Sargam sing "paattu cholli" in Azhagi? She was plain horrible in that song, and by no means is this any more justified than a HJ or YSR using her and her contemporaries repeatedly.
  
  This is why I think this is too complex an issue, and any attempt at rationalism or objectivity in handling this runs the risk of degeneration into another pitched battle.
  
  All IMHO, Suresh
  
  

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