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SPB and TMS - Compare and Contrast

Topic started by rajaG (@ kcecfp01.sprint.com) on Tue Mar 16 12:39:41 EST 1999.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

I had mentioned very briefly mentioned about TMS's talents (and some deficiencies thereof strictly IMO) in another thread. Obviously, the two kings of TFMs deserve at least a separate thread for discussion, instead of merely being a 'distraction' in some other thread.

My request to the participants is:
Please try to be objective in assessing their qualities. Let us explore difference in background, cultural situation at the time of their prime, acting style of the principal heroes, training etc. Let us not take the easy path of 'mere mudslinging' on the artists or the DF participants. Believe me, if and when I have done it, I have not been proud of it!

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: Harikrishna (@ bfp2.brooks.net) on: Mon May 17 11:56:20 EDT 1999
  
  First comparision of singers is not right since every singer has his own style unlike recent entrants like Mano who prefer to immitate. The only aspect where we can compare is the emotion given to a song whch undoubtedly SPB is at his best. I would never say SPB is a great singer instead he is a very intelligent singer and that is the reason for his sucess
  
  
• From: Sanjeev Ramabhadran (@ webgate0.mot.com) on: Mon May 17 13:59:06 EDT 1999
  
  of course everyone has their own style - there's no question about that. but it is simply interesting to compare different points - the purpose is not evaluate and say TMS > SPB or SPB > TMS.
  
  emotion is just ONE aspect we can compare - diction, ease, and intonation are just a few more.
  
  i'm curious about your statement that SPB is not a great singer but he is an intelligent singer. i agree with the second part, about his intelligence, but can you tell me why you don't think he is a GREAT singer?
  
  
  
• From: Harikrishna (@ bfp2.brooks.net) on: Mon May 17 15:53:14 EDT 1999
  
  Hi Sanjeev Ramabhadran :
  
  Well it seems to me that you still have not understood my opinion First of all there is no comparision between artists at all on any scale any honest musician will tell you that. As far as the question of Why IMO I consider SPB as not a GREAT singer is:
  
  a:) Any body in the field of ART who have become somebody is because of a speciality that they have set as a TREND for the Next generation, for instance PBS - his silken smooth vocal is a speciality which till date nobody has mastered. You might want to not that his song "Nilla Ve Ennidum" was SPB's first Voice test song with MSV ( At home we call SPB as Balu). This aspect is what I call as GREAT Balu has sung many heart moving songs eg: "Nellave Vaa" but you will notice that there is much strain in redention of it.
  
  b:)Balu has not had any formal training in Formal Music which make him very Susceptible to other Artist who have had years and years of formal training. What ever Balu sings as carnatic songs are based on Tips from MD's and other specialist - Which is not healthy for a Singer.
  
  His main Card as a success is that he is a very very good mimic which he uses a lot in his Singing. I can tell you n number of ocassions right from the start of his career How this mimicry in him has helped him
  
  Let me know What you think about this
  
  
• From: rajaG (@ daecfp01.sprint.com) on: Mon May 17 19:04:03 EDT 1999
  
  Hari! Hari! Hari!
  
  You flatter to deceive. When you first posted, I thought you were going to present substantial in terms of analysing SPB's qualities. Instead, you have reduced him to be a 'mimic'. No Hari No! Johny Lever and Chinni Jayant are mimics - SPB (Balu for you)is a playback singer. In playback singing, you bring in emotions and yes, histrionics plays a vital role. Exactly where did you notice SPB's (Balu for you) voice strain in nilaavEy vaa, and if so, and only if so, how could a 'classically strained singer' avoid such a strain. By all means PBS is a great singer. Pray tell me, SPB had to sing somebody else's song for audition, right!
  
  By your own statement Mano is a mimic of SPB. If SPB (oops! Balu for you) is only a mimic, why is Mano not as succesful as SPB? And comparison is good. It keeps one's analytical mind healthy.
  
  
• From: Sriram Lakshman (@ ifmxlenx.na.informix.com) on: Mon May 17 21:22:40 EDT 1999
  
  Sanjeev is right when he says SPB opted not to get too open-throated. He got open-throated (somewhat) for some upbeat numbers like "mama un poNNakkudu". He preferred to use his base voice or get open-throated only when required as this could limit his expressive abilities. It is for this reason that I found KK's voice more expressive in 50's and 60's than in the 80's, when his voice thickened and the base became more pronounced. HFM buffs would have heard KK's earlier songs like "Hum hai rahi pyaar ke", "Maana janaab ne pukara nahin" , "Koyi hamdam naa raha" which are superbly rendered with wonderful expressions.
  
  TMS "crooned" in songs like "Gyaayiru enbathu peNNaaga", "O little flower" etc to good effect but as I have stated several times over, his voice is good enough to eliminate any shortcomings in other areas. TMS hitting wrong notes in a classical song is a rarity. There are very demanding numbers like "Vadivelum mayilum thuNai" (ambikapathy , MD:GRamanathan) which apart from highlighting his swaram sense, bring to fore one of his greatest assets , breath control. SPB mentioned in an interview that "MaNNil intha kaathal" song could have been sung by SJ and TMS without any of the recording "acrobatics".
  
  When it came to classical, in the north, frankly, apart from the early "gurus" like KC Dey, Punkaj Mullick etc, there were not too many singers who were very consistent ( I am including Manna Dey), whereas south could boast of Ghantasala, PBS (2 of the very best in Hindustani Taans etc) , TMS, Trichy Loganathan, CSJ, gurus in Carnatic.
  
  Hari, are you referring to "Sollil vaithai muLLai" in "Nilave vaa"? The controlled delivery (without getting too open-throated, to you this is sounding strained) is the right way to render a soft song like "Nilave vaa". The other example is "Adadaa" in "Yenna satham intha neram", well controlled delivery. Just check the old responses in this thread itself , you will find why precisely SPB is held in such a high esteem, highlighting his strenghts would result only in monotony.Pity, you have reduced him to the level of a mimic.
  
  
  
  
  
  
• From: rajaG (@ kcecfp02.sprint.com) on: Tue May 18 09:59:08 EDT 1999
  
  Sriram,
  
  PBS and Hindustani Taans. I am learning more and more about this multitalented multifaceted person. SPB paid enormous tributes to PBS in his 'enadhu isai payaNam' concert (and surely before and after that too). Can you give me a list/reference of his classical based songs (or ofcourse, you can send a cassette to me, hint! hint!)
  
  
• From: Sriram Lakshman (@ ifmxlenx.na.informix.com) on: Tue May 18 12:16:06 EDT 1999
  
  RajaG, E-mail me your mailing address and I will record the cassette I played to you the other day (assorted collections). I do not have too many PBS classical songs right now but can unearth a few Ghantasala songs in Telugu and Tamil. When I get back to California, I could probably get some lovely SPB / PBS Kannada numbers taped, one of the best being SPB's devotional songs on Ragavendra composed by TG Lingappa. I will Email a list of PBS classical numbers.
  
  SPB sang "Nilave yennidam" in EIP right ? FYI the same song was copied by Govardhan (MSV's assistant) in Telugu , sung by Ghantasala.
  
  
  
  
• From: harikrishna (@ bfp2.brooks.net) on: Fri May 21 16:44:17 EDT 1999
  
  Hi Raja and Sri-Laxman:
  
  Why do you have such a low esteem of mimic's it is an art by itself and not everybody can do this you comments are just short of hurting mimic's. There have been numerous artist who have deployed their mimic talent's to further themselves eg Chinni Jayant or take Actress Radhika for that matter(in Keladi Kannmani in the BGM of Mannil Indha she mimic's Rajini). I said that SPB(Ooops Sorry Balu for me) has used his mimic talents in his feild that is singing. What is wrong with that statement?.
  
  In Nilaave Vaa the strain which I reffered was SPB's(Sorry guys Balu for me) attempt to bring in melody to the Song which goes hign os Pitch as the song proceeds he had tried to cover the Strain at the end of each Charanam to which you have reffered as CONTROLLED DELIVERY.
  
  As a musician myself( I Play the Keyboard and Sing I have given around 600 performances), music is a form of expression and when expressions are controlled in any form of art for What ever reason then they are not expressions but Limitations of the Artist. For Instance Sivaji Ganesan (who is widely know for his extravagant expressions) never attempts to hide them for any reason That is his secret Which Kamalahassan has noticed and implemented to the core Here you must note that Kamal is not trying to immitate Sivaji but is performing on the guidelines of Sivaji, and both these artists are world acclaimed performers. The same apply to this Dept of Art i.e Music. Are there any CONTROLLED DELIVERIES of Thyagaraja Kirtana'a.
  
  Hmmm. Your Comments????
  
  
• From: rajaG (@ kcecfp01.sprint.com) on: Mon May 24 20:51:46 EDT 1999
  
  Hari,
  
  Please don't mistake my natural reaction to your responses. I am not really sure if you are actually making a point here OR you are merely trying to instigate Sriram, Sanjeev and myself into a purposeless argument. My first reaction is that your intention is the latter. If you are interested in a serious dicussion then, this, here is a right place. Otherwise, I have to....er, wash my hair. Bye
  
  BTW - Where do you perform regularly (I mean MUSIC)?
  
  
• From: Harikrishna (@ bfp2.brooks.net) on: Tue May 25 10:51:32 EDT 1999
  
  Hi Raja:
  
  You have not given your comments?. I sing Ghazals and right now I have stopped performances due to my office work. I have performed through out South India and still my father is continuing this as it is his hobby.
  
  Moreover there is no question of Instigation here, we are discussing music, and there might some knowledge that you have which I may not have and Vice-Versa
  
  
• From: rajaG (@ kcecfp01.sprint.com) on: Tue May 25 18:07:22 EDT 1999
  
  Hari,
  
  I am going to address your comments/queries one at a time.
  
  First, you are of the OPINION that comparison of artists is not healthy. You are absolutely entitled to your opinion, and for that matter mine too:-). However, you are trying to add to that by saying "any honest musician will tell you that" thereby suggesting that people who compare artists are either not honest or not musician or neither. I take offence to that. Enuff said! I am not going to tout Sanjeev's, Sriram's or my musical qualities or absence thereof.
  
  Second, the subject of Controlled Deliveries. Absolutely - any saahityam demands that. One (especially the singer) has to Control (diminish/augment, increase/decrease) volume, modulation, expression etc, etc, based on the lyrics, tune, situation, raaga, and you name it. You want a Thyagaraja example. Here comes one. Have you heard the krithi Aada mOdi kaladhaa raamaiyaa in CharukEsi. The charaNam starts with the line 'thOdu (protector) needa (shelter) neevEy(you are)'. Listen to Dr.BMK sing this line. He will let you experience the 'request for protection and shelter'. Listen to any of the assembly line Mylapore trade mark 'thyaagaiyyarE thiruvaaroorla thaanEy irundhaar' arguing singers - they do not convey the request and surrender in 'thOdu needa neevEy'. Now, how do you show the expression? By controlling your full throated voice (because you don't scream when you are requesting) for the relevant phrase. I can show more examples if you so wish. Try karuNa thO dhruvuniku edhuta nilichina katHa vinnaanayya - anupallavi from mari mari ninnEy. Of course, if you hear the KJY version you would not be able to decipher that these are the lyrics. Controlled Delivery conspicuous by its absence.
  
  Third, Balu has not had formal training but honestly, it would affect a song only if it involves raagam-thaanam-pallavi in thOdi or bEgadaa or pick the raagam of the day. Not for 95% plus of TFM. And in the semi-classical songs of TFM, it is an understatement to say Balu has not spoiled any song (which could have been rendered better by some other playback singer). In fact, he has rendered many songs marvelously. If you disagree, please give examples. In fact his absence of training is almost a boon for his regular playback singing. See UK - he does'nt know how to get out of the 'thodaila thaaLam, vaaila veththala paakku' mode of renditon for even Haay rabbaa. Give the freedom, he would have gone for a small chittaswaram or neraval after 'nam kaadhalai kavi paadavEy....)
  
  More later.
  
  
  
  
  
• From: rajaG (@ kcecfp01.sprint.com) on: Tue May 25 18:10:21 EDT 1999
  
  Hari,
  
  I am going to address your comments/queries one at a time.
  
  First, you are of the OPINION that comparison of artists is not healthy. You are absolutely entitled to your opinion, and for that matter mine too:-). However, you are trying to add to that by saying "any honest musician will tell you that" thereby suggesting that people who compare artists are either not honest or not musician or neither. I take offence to that. Enuff said! I am not going to tout Sanjeev's, Sriram's or my musical qualities or absence thereof.
  
  Second, the subject of Controlled Deliveries. Absolutely - any saahityam demands that. One (especially the singer) has to Control (diminish/augment, increase/decrease) volume, modulation, expression etc, etc, based on the lyrics, tune, situation, raaga, and you name it. You want a Thyagaraja example. Here comes one. Have you heard the krithi Aada mOdi kaladhaa raamaiyaa in CharukEsi. The charaNam starts with the line 'thOdu (protector) needa (shelter) neevEy(you are)'. Listen to Dr.BMK sing this line. He will let you experience the 'request for protection and shelter'. Listen to any of the assembly line Mylapore trade mark 'thyaagaiyyarE thiruvaaroorla thaanEy irundhaar' arguing singers - they do not convey the request and surrender in 'thOdu needa neevEy'. Now, how do you show the expression? By controlling your full throated voice (because you don't scream when you are requesting) for the relevant phrase. I can show more examples if you so wish. Try karuNa thO dhruvuniku edhuta nilichina katHa vinnaanayya - anupallavi from mari mari ninnEy. Of course, if you hear the KJY version you would not be able to decipher that these are the lyrics. Controlled Delivery conspicuous by its absence.
  
  Third, Balu has not had formal training but honestly, it would affect a song only if it involves raagam-thaanam-pallavi in thOdi or bEgadaa or pick the raagam of the day. Not for 95% plus of TFM. And in the semi-classical songs of TFM, it is an understatement to say Balu has not spoiled any song. In fact, he has rendered many songs marvelously. If you disagree, please give examples. In fact his absence of training is almost a boon for his regular playback singing. See UK - he does'nt know how to get out of the 'thodaila thaaLam, vaaila veththala paakku' mode of renditon for even Haay rabbaa. Given the freedom, he would have gone for a small chittaswaram or neraval after 'nam kaadhalai kavi paadavEy....)
  
  More later.
  
  
  
  
  

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