Home   Forum   Wiki   Notes   Register   FAQ   Sitemap   About Us   Contact Us  

SPB and TMS - Compare and Contrast

Topic started by rajaG (@ kcecfp01.sprint.com) on Tue Mar 16 12:39:41 EST 1999.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

I had mentioned very briefly mentioned about TMS's talents (and some deficiencies thereof strictly IMO) in another thread. Obviously, the two kings of TFMs deserve at least a separate thread for discussion, instead of merely being a 'distraction' in some other thread.

My request to the participants is:
Please try to be objective in assessing their qualities. Let us explore difference in background, cultural situation at the time of their prime, acting style of the principal heroes, training etc. Let us not take the easy path of 'mere mudslinging' on the artists or the DF participants. Believe me, if and when I have done it, I have not been proud of it!

---

Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: rameshb (@ interlock.itthartford.com) on: Mon Mar 22 13:04:39 EST 1999
  
  rajaG,
  >the emphasis played in emotion is different in the north of the Deccan versus the south<
  
  IMO, whether it is north pole or south pole, once the tune is built half the emphasis is already laid on the emotions of the song, then the singer simply executes by expressing within the boundary of his/her limitations. I have not come across a song( or atleast i don't remeber) in which SPB delivered unnecessary brigas. I would not consider this as a limiting factor for singing in hindi as i think MD should have a control over this. IMO, expressions are qualities of a singer who is supposed to deliver effectively for any language provided he is given the background of the situation and some meaning of the lyrics. If you give SPB, the numbers like 'oh sathi re tere bina bhi kya jeena' or 'kya huva tera vadha o kasam', he would have brouhgt the same expressions as Kishore did. But he would have failed to comply with the pronounciation and diction. All strictly IMO.
  
  
• From: chandy (@ 209.125.83.228) on: Mon Mar 22 17:03:41 EST 1999
  
  rajaG, yes, its the culture and background which contributes to the accent and expression. But, as rameshb pointed out, its more a matter of diction for a southi singer to suceed in hindi heartbelt than the brigas and expressions. Udit narayan and Sadhana Sargam are being criticized by lot of TFM fans for the "tamil kolai" they do, but the situ is not very different for our TFM singers like SPB who are singing hindi numbers. SPB's sustenance in Hindi songs currently is mainly due to Salman Khan who insists on having SPB for his songs.
  
  
  
• From: Sriram Lakshman (@ ifmxlenx.na.informix.com) on: Sat Mar 27 17:30:32 EST 1999
  
  Rameshb, great analysis !
  I could not reply as soon as I wanted to owing to time constraints. Unfortunately, this too may not be a full-fledged, elaborate response as "duty beckons" more intensely than ever before.
  Answer to your first question :
  I am a fan of sangathis as much as anybody is.The songs I had listed (where TMS was found wanting in certain areas) , could have been embellished better by somebody like PBS alright. But when you consider the overall punch or the impact the songs carry, you are not going to be disappointed. (I think we could add "Overall impact " to list of parameters). These are songs where TMS's great voice itself assuages the
  feelings of a sangathi fan . That was my point.
  
  You have listed only his semi-classical, classical
  numbers as examples for sangathis . I was making a reference to his lighter numbers and eventhough he has some which can be quoted as examples he did not indulge in it often enough or showed minimal dependence on it.
  Therefore , it certainly is not his forte whereas his voice and his unparalelled polish in delivery were.
  
  He, however came out with flying colours (with respect to sangathis) in the classical numbers like Sinthanai Sei maname. He infact sings "Radhe unakku.." in "KulamagaL radhai" and believe me, I did not miss MKT when I listened to it.
  
  Now, just some observations on your earlier posting (the objective is not to simply contradict but only pitch in with a few thoughts in the same direction), though you pretty much have it all covered.
  
  1. IMO even greats like TMS seldom render a complete song with a voice modified to suit an actor. The idea is to do it when it matters most, give the special characteristic touch to the song at the most appropriate juncture.Example:- Moondrezhuthil en moochirukkum in Deivathai. TMS is distinctly nasal in the pallavi and anupallavi but in the Charanam switches to a style that is more in line with his own "keLvi piranthathu andru", "Iniyathu iniyathu ulagam",
  (both of them sung for Sivaji). But the "MGR feel" has already been conveyed when TMS delivers the sustaining note with "Kadamai...". Another example, "Nilavennum aadai kondaLo" in "Parakkum paavai". The line "AaNmayin kayil thane peNmai varaveNdum" has TMS stressing on "Varavendum" which is so characteristic of
  MGR, so much so that the listener gets the picture of MGR with his "lip-twisting" idiosyncracies. The rest of the song could have been picturised on anybody.
  2. I feel that the nasal character he added to his
  low-pitched songs were in accordance with the mood of the song, IMO that adds a touch of grandeur. "AnbuLLa maan vizhiye" is another example of low-pitched nasal delivery that suited the situation very well. Other low-pitched songs like "Pollaatha punsirippu poga poga un ninaippu", "KaNNethire thondrinaaL" where songs composed for a not so different situation and you find TMS's delivery devoid of any nasal usage. "Aandavan ulagukku muthalaaLi" with MGR in a reflective mood , singing in probably calm settings warranted nasal usage.
  
  3a. My earlier part of this posting deals with this.
  "Engellaam vaLaiosai ketkindratho" has "ketkindratho" "tweaked" a little bit. The most memorable IMO is "Naan unnai azhaikkavillai". The word "Naan" is the "victim" this time and the sangathis overflow with expressions.
  
  With respect to other points , esp. the pathos songs,writing about it could result in monotony as there are several numbers that speak volumes of TMS's dexterity.
  
  More later....
  
  
  
• From: rameshb (@ spider-wo033.proxy.aol.com) on: Sun Mar 28 17:02:58 EST 1999
  
  Sriram L,
  good insight once again! The sangathis overflowing with expression is one of the unique potentials of TMS. BTW, i remember another classical which happens to be a devotional as an example of sangathis , 'kaRpaga vaLLiyin poRpathangal pidiththEn naRkathi aruLvAyammA.'. I used to listen to this number when i was a kid back home. I think there is also that tweaking when he sings 'niRka kalyANiyE..... niRka kalyANiyE kabAli kAthal puriyum antha , kalyANiyE kabAli kAthal puriyum antha ullAsiyE umA unai nambinEnammA ..'.
  
  
• From: Sriram Lakshman (@ ifmxlenx.na.informix.com) on: Mon Mar 29 14:12:08 EST 1999
  
  Rameshb, Karpagavallinil , I think is composed by TMS himself. TMS, if you have noticed sang in a pitch that was very close to MKT's , in his early days.Eg :- Aadatha manamum undo, Sathiyame latchiyamai koLLada etc. Somewhere around the same time he sang a complete song in his base voice, "Thillai ambala nataraja" and no nasal usage at all. He had it in him to become a "base-voiced-singer " but chose to be otherwise.
  
  
• From: raja (@ icon2066.iconnet.com) on: Mon Mar 29 15:37:19 EST 1999
  
  Sriram L:
  
  Your mention of anbulla maan vizhiye - one tries to recollect the whole song (I dont remember when I heard this last..)brings back a nostalgic feel Naan Nadri Solven also from the same film has the same effect on me. I used to live in the same street where TMS used to live (in Mandaveli), the days when he was dethroned, no body used to seendufy him. He used to come and stand in the paal queues in the afternoons . Though I wanted to discuss many of his greats, didnt do it.
  
  And Srinath - if you reach this thread - I am not too sure what you meant in your post in the IR copy thread - you were on a roll so I assume you were just kidding..
  
  
  
• From: Srinath (@ ss08.nc.us.ibm.com) on: Mon Mar 29 16:13:28 EST 1999
  
  Ayyayo "Raja" ! Naan ungala sollala ! I'm so sorry, I forgot about you ! I was kidding rajaG and Raj, not you :-) Weren't you posting as raja_m earlier ? I'd better get back there and clarify before someone starts looking cross-eyed at your posts !!!
  
  
• From: raja (@ spider-wl013.proxy.aol.com) on: Mon Mar 29 18:42:23 EST 1999
  
  Srinath:
  
  Just having fun... :))
  
  
  
• From: rajaG (@ daecfp01.sprint.com) on: Tue May 11 18:02:48 EDT 1999
  
  Sriram, rameshb,
  
  The other day I mailed a cessette with Madhavi pon mayilaaL to Sanjeev, a friend of mine who is relatively underexposed to TFM. he made an interesting observation about TMS's singing. That TMS's brigas and aalaapanais (in Paattum naanEy, Maadhavi pon mayilaaL and similar songs) sound more like a pattern on the naadhaswaram as did those of other singers like MKT, Seergaazhi. He termed SPB as a 'crooner' which he said TMS is not. Any thoughts? I am asking Sanjeev to post directly in the forum.
  
  
• From: Mani S. (@ p167.amax4.dialup.aus1.flash.net) on: Tue May 11 22:57:19 EDT 1999
  
  RajaG, I did not know you started this topic. However I should have guessed it, knowing your love for TFM. A great topic, indeed. As another "underexposed", I am learning a great deal about these two mega male singers of TFM. Johaar, or should I say pArAttu to you & all the DFers.
  
  
• From: Sriram Lakshman (@ ifmxlenx.na.informix.com) on: Wed May 12 12:21:58 EDT 1999
  
  RajaG,
  What he did he mean by that (the "Crooner" stuff) ?
  Great observation about TMS, because TMS himself has admitted in an interview that he visualises the Shehnai instrument when he puts accross certain lines. The example he had quoted then was "Netroru thotram indroru maatram" line in "Naan oru kuzhanthai" from padakotti. If you notice, he starts sounding slightly nasal and volume slowly increases in a crescendo all the time sounding like a flat sustaining note played in Shehnai (without any gamakams) till his bhavams start pouring in the following lines "Paarthaal paarvaikku theriyathu". In the subsequent line, he reverts to the "Shehnai" mode , "thavi thudithathum".
  I can only attribute this TMS's remarkable sensitivity to melody flow.
  
  
• From: Sriram Lakshman (@ ifmxlenx.na.informix.com) on: Wed May 12 14:25:25 EDT 1999
  
  RajaG, will be interesting to note what a Rafi fan like Sanjeev has to say about Rafi's counterpart in the South.
  
  
• From: rajaG (@ kcecfp02.sprint.com) on: Mon May 17 11:45:13 EDT 1999
  
  Sriram,
  
  Here is a note from Sanjeev which I have forwarded here:
  
  I'll try to write more later, but to summarize my thoughts for now, tms seems to be the last of the line of "hard" singers (who sang in a full-"throated" style all the time, and never artificially hollowed out their voices the way spb and company do frequently).
  I enjoy spb, but sometimes tms comes as a very refreshing change after listening to spb's crooning for a while - it's not that he (spb) CAN'T sing in a full-throated voice, but that he often chooses not to, perhaps because he feels that "emotions" come out better. Tms reminds me of mkt singing in a normal scale. he seems to be very inspired by the naadaswaram - i haven't heard THAT many tms songs, but "maadavi pon mayilaal" (sp?) and "paattum naane" are enough to substantiate this. in particular, the beginning gaurimanohari passages in the second one are all naadaswaram-type phrasings. (note - hasn't it been said somewhere that the different facets of vocal music are akin to different instrumental ornamentations/devices? in hindustani this is also supposed to be true; in particular, particular kinds of taans are supposed to be saarangi-ish, some gamaks are been/veena-ish, etc.)
  also, "paattum naane...baavavum naane~-e~-e~-e~-e~~~~~~~~~" has a very naadaswaram-ish trill to it.
  on tms and rafi - they both appear to have been valued for their versatility. both have vibrant voices, and sing in a similar range, though i think tms' bottom is a little more solid than rafi (the end of "paattum naane" is pretty high, as are parts of "maasilaa nilave nam" - that is tms, right?).
  i think rafi is more the crooner though - "crooning" refers to slipping out of our full-throat/chest voice and going into a light, head voice. i've not heard tms do a whole lot of that, and so far, i haven't missed it (though rafi does it masterfully).
  one last thing for this round - tms seems to be a far superior classical singer to rafi (this coming from an ARDENT rafi fan). note i'm not calling him another BMK, GNB, MMI, or anything, but tms knew what he was doing (he did hit one bad note in that korvai (?) at the end of "paattum naane", but that's a nitpick. it's a tiring passage).
  end of random ramblings on tms and rafi. feel free to ask me for any clarification - i'm new to the tamil music forum, but would enjoy sharing my opinions.
  
  sanjeev
  
  

---

List all pages of this thread

Post comments