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Creativity of MSV

Topic started by RAJAN (@ proxy-117.iap.bryant.webtv.net) on Sat Jan 10 15:32:47 EST 1998.
All times in EDT/EST +9:30/10:30 for IST.

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: Srikanth (@ slip-32-101-16-42.il.us.ibm.net) on: Sun Dec 27 08:53:52 EST 1998
  
  
  I would agree little, MSV slightly lacked in orchestra at the end of his tenure, Sure IR slightly over takes MSV a little in his bgms. But for the tune goes, no one can beat the Melisai manner. He beats everyone in tuning a song. His tunes are very very complicated. Also most of his tune were for lyrics.
  Tech stuff:
  Scale of the song is very important, any MD including IR will show the SA note or the scale for the song in first few bars they compose, but in MSV's song he never shows the SA or the scale, he will play around with the mid notes of the scale for quite a number of bars, before we see the SA note. It is very difficult to find the scale of the song.
  
  Frankly he tunes better than Anyone else.
  A small Eg:Nilve enidam nerungathe from Ramu, set to Bagyeshree, a slow pathos melody , he uses the same bagyeshree for a love song in nee enna enna sonlanum kavithai in MGR's netru indru naalai. Simply he is great.
  
  UV:TKR did not do much in MSV success. As far as I know , He was just there..thats it. MSV was forced to spilt due to bad habits of TKR.
  People like MGR were more devoted towards work, seeing TKR stray a little they forced MSV split.
  But no one knows the exact reson for thier spilt.
  Some play the fool around L.R.Iswari, God only knows.
  
  Srikanth
  
  
• From: Raghu (@ proxy4.emirates.net.ae) on: Sun Dec 27 14:08:51 EST 1998
  
  Nobody is talking about "Mella Thirandathu Kadavu"
  for which music was jointly composed by MSV & IR.
  How about guesses as to who composed which song?
  
  I like OORU SANAM by Janaki in this
  
  
• From: karthi (@ lab3.theatrium.net) on: Sun Dec 27 19:30:45 EST 1998
  
  UV,
  
  You didn't understand my point at all.
  
  When I said IR's tunes are reusable what I meant was as I said you can just cut an interlude from one song and paste it in another. You won't feel it any different at all. Meaning, I feel there was no continuity between the tune the song and the interludes. Getting me?
  
  (I didn't say he repeated the interludes in the same song. Which he didn't. But his interludes were not quite different from one to another either. They were just a mixture of sometimes incredible sounds from a variety of instruments)
  
  Let me explain with one example:
  
  Take the case of 'Athan En Athan' by MSV-TKR:
  
  (You just cannot take the credit off MSV because I feel one should never separate tune and orchestration, they have to be hand-in-hand for any song to be complete and hence I feel it was a joint effort by both of them)
  
  In this song, as soon as the 1st stanza is over, you will feel the interlude takes off from where the stanza ends, just about so naturally and so smoothly that the tune and the interlude blend so well to make one wonder if there had been any break at all... such was the composition of MSV's (TKRs).
  
  But such a quality is not often found in IR's music. His interludes may be great as such. That is they may be quite innovative and breath-taking but very rarely they blend with the main tune.
  
  One example of such an IR song where sometimes I get irritated inspite of its rich lyrical content is
  
  'Azhagiya Kanne Uravugal Neeye' from Udiri Pookkal.
  
  Ofcourse, there are so many songs which are quite complete in all respects like Kannan Oru Kai Kuzhandhai, Edhedho Ennam Valarthen etc.
  
  But then it makes me wonder if IR did this purposely in order to be distinct from others.
  
  I can give you great many examples of MSV's where the tune and the interludes become inseparable.
  
  (I should also accept that his works with TKR are infact superior in quality in all respects than his works done all by himself! (Enna irundhaalum irandu maestros inaiyumbodhu, isai vellamaadhaane payum!).
  
  I would rate the following songs of MSV to have a high quality of orchestration:
  
  Oru Raja Raniyidam
  Rajavin Paarvai Raniyin Pakkam
  Bharathi Kannamma
  Oru Naal Iravu Pagal Pol Nilavu
  Love Birds Love Birds
  Inbame Undhan Per Penmaiyo
  Ulagam Azhagu Kalaikalin
  (heavy use of instruments, though)
  Pattathu Rani Parkum
  (heavy use of instruments, though)
  
  When it comes to grand music and all music my vote is for Only MSV!
  
  
  
  
  
• From: Murali Sankar (@ 129.252.23.236) on: Sun Dec 27 21:16:54 EST 1998
  
  I beg to differ from you point of view karthi. I agree that IR has composed many interludes which are totally out of the "raga" (or the melody) of the song, but he has composed some like "Ooradngum", "Punji undu" etc which fitted only those songs. I do not know what impact they may create if they are reused
  
  Regards
  
  Murali Sankar
  
  
• From: Raj (@ hydrec2.hyd.deshaw.com) on: Mon Dec 28 09:31:32 EST 1998
  
  Karthi,
  Can u tell me to which other song U can cut and paste the Azhagiya Kannae interludes and not feel any difference?Just to know....
  Strangely, this is something I have observed in ARR and THE OTHER assorted MD's that make up the TFMscene today.
  
  Let's take Azhagiya Kannae...if you analyse it independently, maybe,what you say holds water. Im only saying MAYBE ..because I dont know why you feel so...I'll just make a guess...maybe, the interlude before the third stanza struck you as being tangential.
  I'll explain it as follows:
  See, a song cannot be independent of its situation...thats something which IR has imbibed in us.I sometimes think, if I had not grown up listening to all those IR songs, I could probably enjoy all these MTV-type songs, which are basically, stand-alone and the reason I dont like these is that they simply dont come wrapped in a situation. If we have to consider the videos which come with them as the situation for these songs, I'm sure it is easy to aghree that these hardly make sense, either with, or without the associated songs. With rare exceptions.
  On the other hand, IR songs rarely deviate from the situation.
  So it is with azhagiya kannae. You have to see the song in terms of its situation....basically, the song shows Ashwini enjopying the antics/pranks of her children...and towards the end, the song meanders to her helplessness against a tyrannical husband...I can remeber thathaunting scene where mahendran shows her sitting in a pensive mood with the children playing nearby and the score to match. Here, the situation turns from the playful gaiety of the children to the melancholic helplessness of Ashwini. Hence, the change in the interlude...the tangential shoot.
  If, on the other hand, you mean the other two interludes in the song as being digressive ..I have no explanations :).
  There is also a point raised by B.Lenin, the editor of the movie in some TV Prog. Somewhere towards the endof the interlude before the second stanza, there is a visual showing a goat 'thulli'fying(couldnt htink of the english equivalent of thulli!)...and the in the bkg,Raja will play a beautiful flute piece , that actually makes you feel the thullal of the goat. He said Mahendran had the song planned out almost to detail..before asking raja to compose..so, imagine how much thought must gnani have put into the song. Also, note the visual where Ashwini and the boy wash clothes...little anju is simply playing in the banks in this visual...and on observing the other two 'pizhunjufy' the clothes , she pizhunjufies her pavadai, which is dripping with water. It is so cute to watch...and HEAR ! I am sure that whatever be the shrtcomings of those interludes from your musical point of view, the fact that they brought out each and every emotion, detail of the scene, IMO, makes up for it. I dont think this song should be quoted as an example of "INTERLUDE DEVIATING FROM MAIN SONG"...because, they were supposed to, considering that is what the scene requires. Maybe, you have many such songs , where you felt that the Interludes deviate. But I feel this song can be justified.
  And , ofcourse, I would like to believe that if raja deviated, it is with the same reason as cited above for this song ! :)
  I guess this is what makes IR great...the songs so beautifully blend with the situation. I have no knowledge of music, meter, tempo etc. SO,perhaps, I am missing your point.
  But even if they did deviate, I thought those were two awesome interludes in Azhagiya kannae...I cant imagine someone can actually be irritated by those
  :). Ofcourse, tastes differ....
  
  
• From: Shashi (@ eed02976.mayo.edu) on: Mon Dec 28 10:38:14 EST 1998
  
  Hi everybody
  
  Regarding Karthi's point--'Azhagiya kanne's ' interludes are irritating?! NO WAY. Karthi you picked the wrong example. Raj, I
  agree with you 100%. This song is simply among the best produced song both from the perspective of the MD and the Director. Also excellent
  work by actors, camera, editing, and wonderful singing(SJ brings out the emotions well). I sometimes prevent myself from watching/hearing this song as it affects me greatly. Now, thats what I call a perfect teamwork by everybody involved in making a masterpiece of a song.
  
  OTOH, take the example of 'Poove Sempoove..' from Solathudikidhu manasu. The melody of the song by itself is nice; similarly the interludes by itself are imaginative, strong; feels as if somebody is vigourously shaking your mind. Infact I consider this interlude an example of Raja's superlative
  creative skills. But all said and done, the picturisation of the song is so dull that one feels that all this hooplah for THIS PIECE of ...!! This is a good example where the melody and the interlude somehow look to be artificially glued to together. Infact I can even accept the sudden change of pace to start the interlude but can never accept the end of the interlude being equally abrupt with the start of the melodius hum of KJY.
  
  Otherwise, Karthi your point about MSV being able to create tunes is well taken. BTW, I was listening to a classic PBS melody 'Mouname
  paarvayai oru paatu paada vendum, naaname jaadaiyai oru vaarthai pesa vendum..' Simply wonderful!! MSV gives the right amount of
  'weightage' to the words and PBS polishes them even further that they shine brilliantly in the song. Going a step further this tune kind of
  reappears as 'Aayarpadi maaligaiyil..' sung by SPB in KrishnaGaanam (Again it is not a copy/repeat by MSV but as it is a re-look at this same
  metering/raga/style etc; a fresh approach; a second innings if you want to call it that!!)
  
  
• From: srikanth (@ proxy1.dpn.deere.com) on: Mon Dec 28 10:40:25 EST 1998
  
  Guys,
  I totally Agree with what Karthi says, Rajas bgm score many times are very theoritical , they deviate from the main melody. This is because Raja was following WC rules. He tries to blend them with Indian Music. Which is not a easy.
  
  Raja composed melody for his chords and bgms.
  He layed the chords and bgm and then constructed the melody, MSV composed his chords and bgm for the melody. He lays the melody first and then comes the bgms.
  Also during the MSV times lyrics were prewritten, during Rajas tenure 9 out of 10 times people wrote of Raja's tune.
  
  This is the basic difference among them.
  
  To end this : MSV's tuning ability is the best so far in TFM. My vote goes to him for the giving us very complicated tunes for very complicated tamil litrature from Kannadasan.
  
  
  
• From: Shankar (@ webgate0.mot.com) on: Mon Dec 28 11:14:46 EST 1998
  
  kArthi,
  I second what Raj has told.
  
  If u listen just to IR's interludes,u can make out the mood of the song. Some songs (mind u, only some) of MSV do have such effect.
  
  Srikanth,
  The argument on who gives a better tune depends on the situation of the song (give them the same situation and see who does it better, like we saw the cases of KM and DSKR) and above all it's subjective. IMO, as somebody said earlier, both Raja and MSV are good in their own way when it comes to tunes.
  
  U can't deny the fact that Raja is in ANYDAY, better than MSV in interludes ,unless u r biased.
  
  U can't just write TKR off!!! TKR did the Orchestration and arrangement for all the songs they did together.It's evident in most of the songs they did together.Orchestration was far better when TKR was around. He wasn't "just there" , as u say.
  
  I can vouch for the authenticity of this info, as my grandpa (who happens to be a former film distributor)has seen both of them working and I confirmed this info from him.
  
  I donno what u mean by "his bad habits".
  
  Raghu,
  As far as I know "ooru sanam" was by IR and "vA veNNilA" was by MSV.
  I donno who composed "kuzhaloodhum kaNNanukku" and "thEdum kaN pArvai" though both of them have strong Raja touch.
  
  

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