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COPYING - IN TAMIL FILM HISTORY

Topic started by s.senthilkumar (@ 203.197.154.163) on Mon Jan 24 07:23:36 EST 2000.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

i think "copying" is there for a long time in tamil film history.Here we discuss the tamil songs copied from others.

For a compilation of copied/inspired songs: http://copied.newtfmpage.com

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: Jaikumar Iyer (@ 203.196.145.227) on: Wed Feb 27 05:36:43 EST 2002
  
  That looks like oldies are better than the present. So, G. Ramanathan, S.V. Venkatraman, Viswanathan Ramamurthy, KVM (i may have missed a few) were almost natural, original and creative. That is why those songs are still Hearable.
  
  In my opinion after IR film 'MUSIC' or 'ISAI' or 'SANGEETHAM' IS GONE.
  
  
• From: Ram (@ 203.199.225.180) on: Wed Feb 27 06:13:04 EST 2002
  
  Have u all heard the Hindi number by Rahman "Suntha hai mera kudha" - a Anil kapoor film..forgot the film name. Don't you find its resemblance with an old tamil number sung by T.M.Soundarajan: "Kallellaam Maanickka kal aaguma". I think its an exact copy from this song.(may be copied unknowingly);-)
  
  
• From: Common Friend (@ 203.197.141.179) on: Wed Feb 27 06:35:04 EST 2002
  
  >>>But if u still insist its a copy, then what about the old & cliched tabla & dholak rhythms in the background which IR & many other composers use in most of their songs.
  
  Yes, I have been saying this for long. If we take this seriously, then we might come up with almost 2000 or more songs(more that 50% of 4000) of IR copied from some or other unknown , anonimous good old folk song. But, since it is IR here in the question, we cannot accuse and better we forget these things.
  
  See, if you lift an african folk song or a beat then you a destined to be hanged till death, but if you lift or modify an Indian folk, then you are actually doing a service to the folk art. Got it...
  
  
• From: raja (@ 199.43.48.22) on: Wed Feb 27 09:01:41 EST 2002
  
  Karthick S:
  
  The song by Dulce Pontes is great.I initially thought it was spanish, then realised it was portugese.
  
  Some masala :)
  
  Yen purushan Thaan ennakku mattum thaan - Gopurangal Saaivadhillai sounds `close' to Dum Maro Dum..
  
  
  
  
• From: Karthik S (@ 164.164.82.29) on: Wed Feb 27 22:17:37 EST 2002
  
  I've heard for ages that 'Megamey megamey' from Palaivana Cholai was lifted from a ghazal but was never able to find the original ghazal. Now, thanks to Naaz, in the Shankar Ganesh Originals thread, finally managed to get hold of it! The original is a Jagjit Singh ghazal, 'tum nahin gham nahi sharab nahi'. The lift is pretty much same with no major changes, but Vani Jeyaram's singing elevates this Tamil ghazal to new heights.
  
  Listen to both the songs at
  http://www.iespana.es/i2fs/
  
  
• From: kiru (@ 192.138.150.249) on: Wed Feb 27 23:35:48 EST 2002
  
  'Anyway' if you think ARR is lifting rhythms from other songs, please list them. Karthik has a category for this.
  Karthik, do you think you should also list the songs which have the same rhythm arrangement as another songs but not necessarily match the beat pattern ?
  
  
• From: cosmician (@ 194.170.127.161) on: Thu Feb 28 04:00:47 EST 2002
  
  >>Greatest is that to date, I have not come across a single interlude violins or prelude that IR may have copied from western classical. <<<
  
  Anyway...the above is an exaggeration..many of the western classical interludes in IR's song..the pitch, tone and tempo of the violin ensembles or a combination of other instruments can be found in Bach, Mozart etc..Bach being IR's favourite......that's what gives the songs its familiar modern western tilt and mass accepatance....IR using the same combination to sound out a tamil folk tune is his originality.....why is it that we don't term this as "inspiration" or "lift" when ARR does the same from western "pop" rhythms...what should be appreciated is that they both have been able to infuse their individuality by adapting already existing musical systems and structures...
  
  
• From: cosmician (@ 194.170.127.161) on: Thu Feb 28 04:14:14 EST 2002
  
  >>>See, if you lift an african folk song or a beat then you a destined to be hanged till death, but if you lift or modify an Indian folk, then you are actually doing a service to the folk art. Got it...<<<
  
  Well said DF :-D
  
  
• From: cosmician (@ 194.170.127.161) on: Thu Feb 28 04:15:07 EST 2002
  
  Sorry typo - CF not DF
  
  
• From: Karthik S (@ 164.164.82.29) on: Thu Feb 28 05:55:23 EST 2002
  
  To me, the tune is of paramount importance - much more than bass, rythm loops et all. And if I find a tune inspired that pretty much sums up the standard of the composer IMO.
  
  IR's use of interludes based on WCM isnt a problem with me. Even when he actually created tunes out of numbers like Cancione et danza and the original of chittu kuruvi, he had treaded on the tune territory I so fondly talk about every time!
  
  The reason why I dont take a thangapadhakathin mele seriously when it is talked about as the original of enna vilai azhage is that as a person born and brought up in TN, I'd say that our past film music is bound to find its place here and there. I wouldnt talk about it as lifting. But I'd sure ask ARR to be careful that this sorta thing doesnt happen too often.
  
  Even in IR's case, he might be listening to cancione et danza from time immemorial and might show up in his work, but to people in TN, it is an alien tune and when one finds it out, we are bound to think of it as lifting.
  
  Digression: Doesnt Bolo re pappi hara sound a lot like Kannathil Muthamittal title song - or vice versa! Same raga I suppose. What raga could these 2 be clubbed under?
  
  
• From: Karthik S (@ 164.164.82.29) on: Thu Feb 28 22:44:19 EST 2002
  
  I wouldnt like to call this a copy since the original song in question is used deep inside the tamil song. The 1960 pop instrumental 'Too much tequila' by The Champs finds itself deep inside A R Rahman's Jodi number 'kai thatti thatti...tara rum pum' number! I've edited the relevant portion from its hindi version (from Doli sajake rakhna) so that you get to listen to the part that resembles the tequila song, first.
  
  You decide if its a conscious inspiration or a coincidence! I personally find it unlikely that Rahman sits down and decides to use the tequila song in the second line of para 2.....which is why I felt it was a coincidence!
  
  Listen to both the numbers at
  http://www.iespana.es/i2fs/
  
  
• From: MS (@ 129.252.25.204) on: Thu Feb 28 23:18:49 EST 2002
  
  Suntha hai mera kudha - This song can be sung exactly like veNNilave veNNilave and vice versa. It is the recycle of meter.
  
  
• From: sundar (@ 61.11.73.125) on: Fri Mar 1 00:59:59 EST 2002
  
  'En deivam' from KM- parts of the song are strikingly similar to "bol re pappi hara" from Guddi.
  
  
  
  
• From: O_IS_G (@ 193.188.97.152) on: Fri Mar 1 01:23:55 EST 2002
  
  "But I'd sure ask ARR to be careful that this sorta thing doesnt happen too often"
  
  Karthik -Do you personally know Rehman?
  
  
  
  
  
• From: Karthik S (@ 164.164.82.29) on: Fri Mar 1 01:37:26 EST 2002
  
  :-)
  
  I wish!
  
  I meant "I'd sure like to ask Rahman to be careful..."
  
  But there are people in the ARR Fans Yahoo Group who are in touch with Rahman over mail and phone!
  
  
• From: kiru (@ 64.166.86.84) on: Fri Mar 1 01:46:02 EST 2002
  
  "why is it that we don't term this as "inspiration" or "lift" when ARR does the same from western "pop" rhythms...what should be appreciated is that they both have been able to infuse their individuality by adapting already existing musical systems and structures..."
  
  cosmician ..my friend ..do we have to keep comparing these two composers all the time. If somebody says, something is lifted either we accept it or not.
  
  (Karthik, did you see my request/suggestion or are you ignoring that or consider that it is not worthy of comment ?)
  
  
• From: Karthik S (@ 164.164.82.29) on: Fri Mar 1 02:05:57 EST 2002
  
  Oh yeah saw that. I really wouldnt be able to do that since I consider that a grey area in my site's context. Also, there'd be numerous such instances...I'd have to resign from ym job to add these!
  
  
• From: O_IS_G (@ 193.188.97.152) on: Fri Mar 1 02:14:48 EST 2002
  
  There you are!I suggested you an alternate profession!
  
  
• From: Karthik is the Raja ; --) (@ 63.215.118.45) on: Fri Mar 1 03:16:48 EST 2002
  
  Karthik - Thank you. too much tequila and too much 3 much by ARR! you are absolutely right. where did you get that song? did you know about it earlier? i've heard it before but i did not see the coincidence. so, again another song from 3 different sources. (as i said, i will get you the tango tune for the taramapampa part itself!) I salute ARR. this is the age of cut, paste and blend. using computer and mixer. great work, ARR.
  
  
• From: Karthik S (@ 164.164.82.29) on: Fri Mar 1 03:55:43 EST 2002
  
  Sorta knew about it. Was planning to add the hindi versions when I suddenly found the coincidence. I still think its indeed a coincidence.
  
  I kind of remember listening to a tango tune similar to the tara rum pum opening. Not sure of its title and all that. Do let me know if you come across that number.
  
  
• From: Common Friend (@ 203.197.141.179) on: Fri Mar 1 07:45:02 EST 2002
  
  "Bol re papi hara" and "kannathil Muththamittal" are bot based on rag Miya ki malhaar. I think so. I am still in doubt. But, the charanams, of tamil goes in to hamsadwani. I am not an expert. Just kelvi gnaynam.
  
  
• From: To anyway again@65.56.137.247 (@ 132.235.18.15) on: Fri Mar 1 12:16:42 EST 2002
  
  "Anyway again@65.56.137.247" "That one great theme he attempted for the second interlude for tarampapam tarampapam is actually a straight forward inspiration from Vivaldi's four seasons!!!!!!"
  
  Cud u please tell which one exactly from the Four Seasons are u talking about??
  
  
• From: s0 (@ 128.119.85.50) on: Fri Mar 1 13:44:30 EST 2002
  
  the too much tequila tune itself sounds similar to the "words" song by beegees (and later boyzone)
  
  
• From: Isai Priyan (@ 157.95.211.50) on: Fri Mar 1 13:53:47 EST 2002
  
  Karthik S (@ 164.164.82.29):
  I don't see the Jodi number u r talking about neither in ARR-Hindi nor ARR tamil collection in your webpage.Can you tell me where it is?
  
  
• From: Isai Priyan (@ 157.95.211.50) on: Fri Mar 1 14:01:24 EST 2002
  
  Sorry for the post I found it!!!
  
  
• From: Bharath (@ 156.153.255.134) on: Fri Mar 1 16:06:19 EST 2002
  
  Karthik S,
  
  Can you compare the drum loop of "bole sajini" from Doli sajake rakhna and that of "not enough time" by INXS.
  
  I think at a some level they sound very similar.
  
  
• From: O_IS_G (@ 193.188.97.152) on: Sat Mar 2 02:41:18 EST 2002
  
  Karthik
  
  I also feel that an MD does not take pains to copy for a line.No doubt the song /music piece must have been at the back of his mind.
  
  Listen to the opening of Nutcracker.It does resemble "Vanna papa Anjali than"(III line).But the similarity starts and ends there ;hardly a 4 second piece.But to call it as a lift, is poor thinking.
  
  Lets try to rationalise the terms "Copy" "Inspiration"
  
  When "en iniya Enthira" and "Sorgatheevvu" by Sujatha got published the critics came out with 5 originals for each.The master had the answer for them."Naan oru Library i a copy adithirukka vendum".
  
  when "varaha nadhikaraiyorm"Came following were the "originals" floated by Critics.
  1.Bengali sufi singer (Subbudu)
  2.NFAK (this forum & some OS Arun program-Vikatan Referred to it))
  3.Dheena Karunakarane(Mohan vaidya in a TV channel and madras melthatu musicians)
  
  Now which is the original of the original?
  
  To me it sounded brilliant and brought back the days when we used have "Seetha Kalyanam"Sampradaya Bhajan in our village.
  
  

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