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IR and Jayalalitha - Similarities

Topic started by Pozhudhu pogadhavan (@ 12.92.217.110) on Fri May 11 18:36:47 EDT 2001.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

As all of you well known about the arrogance of them.
There are some more: Both were at their peak during 1991 to 1993. Their drastic downfall started in 1994,1995. Any more thoughts?

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: hari (@ 216.141.67.251) on: Fri May 18 10:41:14 EDT 2001
  
  nalla kooththu.. as if IR has nothing else to do but keep subbudu happy !!
  
  comment... ur knowledge is very much respected here. But U are becoming guilty of the same faults that u accuse IR fanatics of.... losing perspective.. why discuss all this trash?
  
  
• From: comment (@ 12.5.10.153) on: Fri May 18 10:47:47 EDT 2001
  
  hari, agreed, btw: I did not hurt anyone anywhere.
  (when compared to the great swamiji:)
  
  there is misnom among people a musician becomes great if cerified by subbudu...subudu has told deva is great!...which is an abusurd statement to the core.
  I simply request people not give importance to subbudu's words, imho:people here know IR better than him. Anyday Our certificate is better than subudu's.
  
  
• From: no-comment (@ 64.104.128.15) on: Fri May 18 11:07:09 EDT 2001
  
  comment,
  For your information Subbudu NEVER told Deva is great.
  All he said was Deva uses more native instruments than
  other present day composers. Certainly it's true,
  Deva uses veena and other native instruments more than
  any body else.
  
  "DON'T DEGRADE YOURSELF", this was your advice to Swamiji
  in another thread and it applies to you as well.
  
  
• From: bharath (@ 192.25.158.12) on: Fri May 18 11:19:28 EDT 2001
  
  ratchasaan,
  
  so now a new fact is added that I dont know anything abt subbudu..
  
  //"I pity your ignorance about Mr Subbudu. You better learn about him and the respect he has commanded in the carnatic musicians"//
  
  As the postings b4 also indicate... subbudu is allegedly biased and since people give too much faith and importance on his ability to transalate his carnatic knowledge to TFM taste.. the tend to over hype his statements...
  
  In a DD interview when asked who was the best IR or ARR? his reply was deva. Maybe he wanted to trash both IR and ARR. And that is why he named deva (though contrary to what other opinions indicate , its not his genuine deva liking that made his say that)
  
  And also when asked about 2 very good songs "ithu oru pon malai pozhuthu" from nizhalgal and "ennavale adi ennavale" from kadhalan.
  
  he contemptuously remarked the famous words "kedarathukku sedharam" , which means its a shame or ruin to kedaram. Agreed the songs werent based on pure kedaram raaga, but his over insistence on carnatic structures being rigidly followed, made it impractical for MD's to please him because they have to be commercially viable also...
  
  so subbudu is what we famously call... "armchair expert". if he is so knowledgable himself why didnt he compose TFM!!!!
  
  With this opinion of him ONLy did I ask you if, what subbudu said cud be taken as facts. Again as u supercilliously have said I dont know anything about subbudu.. i guess we can now officially transfer the know-it-all title to u....
  
  u may have appreciated (read as condescendingly patronized) ARR in ur first few para's...
  
  but my point was pointing out 8 of ur statements which u have blantantly exposed.... ur personal opinion and bias towards anything non-IR...that is not wrong ....expressing personal opinions is what this place is all about. But claiming them as facts needs more documental backing....
  
  and to the question of whether those 8 statements were still facts accordng to u... till even now.. remains to be answered only by u....
  
  i suggest u do just this... from 1991, the time ARR came into the picture (literally).. draw a ledger... account the hits given by ARR Vs IR till now, keeping in mind sales (which is a reflaction of popularity) of the cassatte... and you will know ... whom the people prefer most ... and who understands the modern tamilian better!!!!
  
  if u say IR is above all commercial saless... i need to remind u a very old saying... "the name is never bigger than the game"
  
  
  
• From: comment (@ 12.5.10.153) on: Fri May 18 11:43:18 EDT 2001
  
  no-comment -->, he did say it on tv.
  thats all. if you dont know about it what can I do, if you think talking little bit about IR is degrading myself, i dont think so.
  
  
  thanks for your advice.
  
  
• From: Sridhar (@ 203.197.176.160) on: Fri May 18 15:15:46 EDT 2001
  
  bharath
  
  You are very right. Subdu says that "Varaga" was copied from Dum Mastakalandar. And someone also says that it is copied from an old NSK song. Now, did NSK copy or vice versa. Subdu is a fan of IR and so thats what he's going to write. Just imagine a critic writing "yenda mayaMAANai kandu bayam vendam". How can he even be called a proper critic. He should be asked to play jalra in IR's troupe. And one of IR's hits after ARR's entry was "Otha ruba tharen". This is a direct copy of "Nee munnale pona naan pinnale vaaren". I think this was also by IR. So, there is really no competition between ARR and IR. ARR is miles ahead. And these are just my opinions. And not facts as Ratchasan says. And also, when an IR fan says that the BGM of some movie by IR is very good first, you can safely assume that songs were crap.
  
  
• From: aruLaracan (@ 134.124.160.10) on: Fri May 18 15:58:28 EDT 2001
  
  comment:He [subbudu] has trashed many young musicians with his stupid words, he has spolit thier life to a great extent in the name of review you are worng here buddy. (or at least that'w what i think :-) ). subbudu always had a soft corner for young artists. i have read many a times in the same magazines where he has blasted the established ones like semmangudi, padmA subrahmaniam, ... but praised young and blooming artists like unni krishnan, srinidhi rangarajan, ... (i have never read him criticise chithra vishveshwaran too much!. may be i have never read :-) ).
  
  
• From: comment (@ 12.5.10.153) on: Fri May 18 16:20:09 EDT 2001
  
  yes, you have never read, I know few dancers /singers who lost their carrier just because of him.
  
  btw: UV was looking for you something very important -;)
  
  
  
• From: polappu (@ 216.253.102.3) on: Fri May 18 16:53:38 EDT 2001
  
  didn't Subudu have some problem with IR a few years back? He criticized some IR's work and it was made out to be a big problem in tamil magazines. I think this episode was also discussed in this forum.
  
  and barath,
  
  "if he is so knowledgable himself why didnt he compose TFM!!!! " --- He is a critic, not a composer.
  
  
• From: kk (@ 198.4.92.5) on: Fri May 18 17:49:06 EDT 2001
  
  aruLaracan,
  you are right, Subbudu has helped many young artists to get good exposure. BUt he is against young musicians spoiling thier voice by singing songs that are not good for thier voice in movies.
  
  BTW, you didnt answer my question in "IR new albums" thread.
  
  
• From: Raatshashan (@ 202.9.182.85) on: Sat May 19 05:50:02 EDT 2001
  
  I agree with pollappu that Subbudu is after all a critic. You can not expect a critic to be a composer. It's like insisting that a cricket commentator/umpire should be a player of the game as well. All that is required is a knowlege of the rules of the game.
  
  Well, critics are after all critics. They will always be looking for miskakes. Their views should be taken postively. Subbudu has once said that KJY's voice is too soft(due to his singing film songs) for carnatic music. If carnatic music has lost a good voice, then film music has gained one. It all depends on which side of the fence you are.
  
  If Subbudu has said that Deva is the best MD today, i will not deviate much from his view.
  
  Deva has worked for Kamal, K Balachandar, Mani Rathnam's productons , Rajni(consequetively), Vijay , Ajit, Bharathi Raaja, all leading actors, and film directors.
  
  He has given run away hits like Kaadhal Kottai, Suriyan, Vaali, Kushi during the period where ARR was supposed to be the king.
  
  He has been the MD with most numbers of films ever since the decline of IR in 1994.
  
  So, if statistics are anyting to go by, Deva has taken over IR as for as TFM is concerned.
  (INTERESTINGLY, ARR IS YET TO PRODUCE MUSIC FOR A VIJAY MOVIE(Please correct me if i'm wrong)).
  
  Coming to the criticism that Deva is a copy act, just as Corruption as an accepted evil in Indian Society, Plagiarism too. That is, who does not copy! IR' song " darling darling " from Priya, was said to be a copy. His "Maanguyile" of karagatta karan was a film version of a folk song
  " Erumayil Eri Vilayudum Mugam Ondru" in praise of Lord Muruga.
  
  Quite a few songs of ARR seem to be direct influence of old MSV hits. He also recycles his own tunes. "ottagathha kattikko" of Gentleman and "kappaleri poyachU' of Indian are alike.
  "Ennavilai Azhage" of Kaadhalar Dinam is similar to " Thanga pathakkathin Mele" , an old MGR hit. One can recognize the influenze of a song from "Varumayin Niram Sigappu" in the song "Roja Roja" of Kaadhalar Dinam. Any how, ARR has acknowedged the greatness of MSV. After all, imitation is the best form of flattery.
  
  
  So , why single out poor Deva for copying. Its all a percentage of copying that differs; If deva is 80%, IR may be 2%. ARR may be 50%. (Bhartah, you have a point to pounce upon).
  
  Bharath,
  
  If record sales alone is a criterion,, then IR is nowhere compred to ARR. (Though IR is playing his second innings). Well , i do not think casettes of "Bharathy" "Kannukkul Nilavu" or "Hey Ram" would have sold 1/10 th of those of " Tenali" or "Padayappa" . If "Bharathy'" does not sell much, is it a loss for IR or lovers of great music. Better you be a judge.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
• From: eden (@ 210.214.5.199) on: Sat May 19 08:35:13 EDT 2001
  
  One similarity between IR & JJ is the promotion of `vArisukaL' (in JJ's case vaLarppu magan, AruirthOzhi etc.) and the corresponding effect on their careers / market shares. It's pretty obvious that the 1996 electoral debacle of JJ can be attributed at least 25% to the grand marriage & affinity to thOzhi (75% is DMK/TMC alliance, Rajinikanth factor etc). Similarly, IMHO, while the KB-MR-ARR combo may be a main reason for reduction of IR's market share in the higher end category, he lost out a huge percentage of his mid & low budget markets thanks to his promoting of sons:-(
  (Proof - TFM 2001 has so far seen 1 film by IR, zero film by ARR, 3 by KR, 2 by YSR. Pretty obvious that IR is promoting his sons. This may even be indirectly the reason for some producers moving to Deva and the likes)
  
  
• From: bharath (@ 64.195.29.45) on: Sat May 19 11:40:56 EDT 2001
  
  even then ratchasaan its just 4 hits by deva 6-7 if u innclude nerukku ner and aasai...
  
  kushi was copies verbtim frm dangerous..infact the order of songs copied in kushi was the same order in which the songs appeared in the cassatte
  
  valee another copy-mix from elvis-presly MJ albms
  
  anyway ...its waste talkin abt deva... no use comparing him....
  
  i wud only say that if IR did som very bad movies in the 1990's the loss of trust gnerated in the peopleby those movies resulted in this movie alsobeing overlooked by a lot...
  
  
  but i thought barathi was a hit... if not seriously we wudnt be talkin abt it in high words
  
  

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