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Shankar-Jaikishan & Illyaraja

Topic started by Indian Music Fan (@ 204.50.249.133) on Fri Jun 1 12:15:20 EDT 2001.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

SJ were certainly the most prolific and best MD's of their time. They were responsible for the most number of hits during their reign at the top. I think they can certainly match up to Illyaraja in terms of quality, quantity and versatality. If Jaikishan hadn't passed away in 71, they would have definetly ruled over RDB, LP or any other challenge that would have come their way in the future. They were legends and were very excellent. What do you guys think ??

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: pOkkiri rAjA (@ a060-0430.snfc.splitrock.net) on: Tue Jul 17 04:02:39 EDT 2001
  
  IMF is clueless about IR and SJ and hence the comparison, oops "comparison". SJ's music for atleast 80-90% of the movies are painful reminders of the fact that HFM imbibed the "saleability over quality" attitude earlier than others. Please do not start quoting movies that fall in the exceptions list.
  
  
• From: G.Ragavan (@ 164.164.94.115) on: Tue Jul 17 04:06:10 EDT 2001
  
  Please don't compare IR with anybody. Say he is great and enjoy his music. Then you'll not get time to post something here.
  
  
• From: IMF (@ 203.197.80.29) on: Tue Jul 17 06:30:04 EDT 2001
  
  please enlighten me with the names of movies with music by SJ having saleablity preferred over quality.
  
  BTW mahabs, these longs quoted by LV are compositions by LP and in another thread. Cool!!
  
  
• From: Original IMF (@ 204.50.249.133) on: Tue Jul 17 15:47:07 EDT 2001
  
  Escuse me IMF, you are using my name which i have been using all along. Go get another name ok. You are confusing people who think it is me ok. I will now keep my name as Original IMF. Don't copy my name again.
  
  
• From: Original IMF (@ 204.50.249.133) on: Tue Jul 17 15:54:24 EDT 2001
  
  EVERYONE, I am the original IMF who started this topic and who posted my comments on the pages before this one. The IMF on THIS current page is someone else who has taken my name. So don't think his opinions are mine ok. My opinions are completely different from what he has said. I am the IMF who has been posting throughout this whole forum as well as the SPB and Rafi threads and other ones as well. This guy should quit using my name or else get out. I will call my self original IMF. Just look at the IP ADDRESS if you want to differentiate between us.
  
  
• From: Truth Lover (@ webproxy03qfe0.sbi.com) on: Tue Jul 17 16:30:16 EDT 2001
  
  Orignal IMF,
  Buddy, No need for that. We can find you from your idiotic posting and your crapy music taste.
  
  
  
• From: Original IMF (@ 204.50.249.133) on: Tue Jul 17 22:34:46 EDT 2001
  
  Truth Lover,
  
  You amuse me !!. Keep it up !!!. I have better music taste than you and am one who atleast explores the outer boundaries of music unlike some people here who are secular and just remain inside boundaries without listening to other kinds of music.
  
  
• From: Swamiji (@ hqprxsrf02.autodesk.com) on: Tue Jul 17 23:25:24 EDT 2001
  
  OriginalIMF,
  know your own boundary first before you "explore" other boundaries. A better taste doesn't always imply looking on the other side.
  Music "Manufactured" up north is a big bore. They are made with the same ingredients that had been made for the last one century.
  
  
• From: LV (@ 203.197.82.112) on: Wed Jul 18 00:08:52 EDT 2001
  
  mr pokkiri raja:
  
  As u said to IMF,please do tell me which movies of SJ had music that was focussed on only saleability rather than quality.
  
  
• From: Wait a minute (@ sc-66-27-204-54.socal.rr.com) on: Wed Jul 18 01:23:10 EDT 2001
  
  Original (or otherwise) IMF :
  
  What do you mean secular? Do you actually mean secluded? You see, they are two very different things. There is a third facet to this business - 'pseudo-secularism'. Which is what you guys seem to be, in essence, portraying.
  
  "We have listened to RDB, SJ and LP. So we know about music styles other than TFM. You guys listen only to TFM, therefore you do not know about anything else".
  
  Is that not the crux of your arguments? That is fundamentally wrong because your assumption, that people in this thread have not listened to anything other than TFM, is wrong.
  
  On to the next logical question. When one talks about Film music, is it restricted to the songs alone? Or does it involve BGM too? Are you basing your statements on either or both? What are you actually comparing?
  
  I mean, it is pretty easy to claim that India is better than, for example, Somalia or vice-versa. Are there any defined parameters for these judgments? Unless you lay down some ground-rules, this kind of discussion (or argument if you will) can go on ad nauseum. SJ vs IR, IR vs ARR, MSV vs IR and so on and so on and on...
  
  If you guys agree, even partly, with what I am saying, fine. ivan yArudA namakku sollaradhuna, that is OK too. edhO nammAla mudinjadhu. :-)
  
  appAda. That was a Bharath-like post. On and on and on...... :-)
  
  
• From: pOkkri rAjA (@ a020-0006.snfc.splitrock.net) on: Wed Jul 18 01:33:54 EDT 2001
  
  LV and IMF,
  All Raj Kapoor solo songs of the likes of 'mErA jootha hai jApAni','jAoon kahAn batha aye dil','AwArA hoon' and lots of Shammi kapoor songs. Their tunes most of the times were simplistic and were created with the sole intention of making them 'hits'. Every composer looks at saleability till a point, but in the instances that I have quoted, that was the only factor... make it simple and let the 'common' man 'own' it. Very few like 'chcham chcham bAjE rE' would make it into my list of their better tunes.
  On a positive note,they used violins best in HFM (note:only HFM) like in 'bhawrE ki gunjan' and 'likhE jO khath tujhE','yEh rAth bheegi bheegi' etc.
  
  Any reason why IR and MSV never mention SJ in the same breath as their (SJ's) peers and Anu Mallick and Nadeem-Shravan worship them (SJ)? :))))
  
  
• From: LV (@ 203.197.82.165) on: Wed Jul 18 02:07:05 EDT 2001
  
  mr pokkiri Raja:
  
  (1)I HAVE read an interview of IR speaking very highly of Shankar Jaikishan (besides Naushad,Salil C and C Ramchandra).
  
  (2)Now about the Raj Kapoor movies:
  Yes even I hate songs like 'mera joota...' and 'ramaiya ..'.
  However the same film has great songs like
  -mud mud ke na dekh (asha + manna dey)
  -o jaane waale zara mudke (lata)
  -pyaar hua (lata + manna dey)
  These were great songs.
  
  (3)Also 'jaaoon kahaan bataye dil' is NOT from a RK film. Its from 'chhoti behan'. This song is a great pathos-filled song by Mukesh (Mukesh was a bad singer but this song is real good. Very moving.)Even the other songs in this film are very good.
  
  (4)Even 'jish desh mein ganga behti hai' had bad songs by Mukesh. But the ones by Lata,Asha,Geeta,Mubarak are great. Heard 'aa ab laut chalen' and 'o basanti'.
  
  (5)Well almost all the Shammi Kapoor songs were fabulous songs. The film 'Junglee' has great songs like 'ehsaan tera' and 'sara din...'. U might not like 'chahe koi mujhhe jangli kahe'. But if 1 out of 10 songs was bad, and the rest great, it does not mean SJ were bad MDs.
  I see nothing bad in 'evening in paris' or 'brahmachari' or 'pagla kahin ka' at all.
  
  (6).And they have several classical scores that are par excellence.'Amrapali' , 'mere huzoor' , 'jane anjane', 'basant bahaar', seema, sanjh aur savera, lal pathhar .................................
  and so many more.
  
  (7)Listen, IR is great. Well I did not like IRs Sadma - thats my opinion which may be wrong according to u. However I do believe in IRs legendary talent.
  'Swarnakamalam' and 'Annakilli',
  'bharathi' and 'punnagai mannan', 'azhage unnai...' and 'aakhiri porattam', his krithis for P Leela, his album with Hariprasad Chaurasia....
  are all great. I also love 'ilamai...', 'vaidehi kaathirundaal', 'kathal oviyum' and many more.
  
  In fact, Mr Eden had given me a list of 1000 IR songs(stars) - i've heard nearly 500 of those by now. They are all fine songs.
  Nobody denies that
  
  (8)However, I feel atleast 90% of even Shankar Jaikishan's songs are great, really treats. They were also prolific, maybe not as much as IR.
  Forget whether who is better or not, but SJ were legends in their own way. NOBODY is denying IRs greatness here.
  
  
• From: man (@ lan-202-144-73-33.maa.sify.net) on: Wed Jul 18 07:34:56 EDT 2001
  
  lv,
  
  like your posting....
  
  keep it up
  
  
• From: Common Friend (@ 203.197.141.183) on: Wed Jul 18 07:38:44 EDT 2001
  
  LV:
  >>>NOBODY is denying IRs greatness here.
  
  I think you have said this a trillion times here and these muddle heads will never get this in their clay. Don't write statements to prove your liking for IR again and again. Its useless. It's better to be a villian through out , that trying to be a pitiable hero.
  
  
• From: aruLaracan (@ psiphi.umsl.edu) on: Wed Jul 18 10:55:21 EDT 2001
  
  LV and IMF(s?): one and only point. this is tfm-df, right? and you don't like comparisons either, right? then why shankar-jaikishen and and iLayaraaja. why don't you cut the crap and call yourselves spades? or, may be, bigots will be more apt.
  
  
• From: Swamiji (@ hqprxsrf02.autodesk.com) on: Wed Jul 18 14:21:09 EDT 2001
  
  However mr LV, Ilayaraja is a genius, and S or J were not.
  
  
• From: Original IMF (@ 204.50.249.133) on: Wed Jul 18 15:30:17 EDT 2001
  
  Look everyone,
  
  When i said that some people here do not listen to music other than their own i meant that the people writing things here sound as if they haven't listened to other kinds of music. If you haven't listened to other MD's then do not comment about them. IR is great no denying that fact and so is SJ. If you do not have anything to say then don't say anything bad about other MD's by criticizing them. By the way LV, do you think you can tell me where to find that interview or is it not on the net.
  
  
• From: Original IMF (@ 204.50.249.133) on: Wed Jul 18 15:30:27 EDT 2001
  
  Look everyone,
  
  When i said that some people here do not listen to music other than their own i meant that the people writing things here sound as if they haven't listened to other kinds of music. If you haven't listened to other MD's then do not comment about them. IR is great no denying that fact and so is SJ. If you do not have anything to say then don't say anything bad about other MD's by criticizing them. By the way LV, do you think you can tell me where to find that interview or is it not on the net.
  
  
• From: Original IMF (@ 204.50.249.133) on: Wed Jul 18 15:31:07 EDT 2001
  
  LV, i meant the IR interview where he speaks about SJ !!!
  
  
• From: pr (@ a020-0115.snfc.splitrock.net) on: Wed Jul 18 16:28:44 EDT 2001
  
  LV, I guess we will never agree.:)))
  
  
• From: Indian Music Fan (@ 204.50.249.133) on: Wed Jul 18 22:44:10 EDT 2001
  
  Hello guys,
  
  Talking about SJ and Illyaraja is an interesting discussion to find out about people's views. LV, your last posting was entertaining, and i agree with you on the points you made about SJ. SJ were at the top of their field. They have been credited with revolutionizing the orchestra and interlude in Indian Music. They brought on the Western trend into music and people like RDB and others continued that trend. SJ's tunes had simplicity as well as they had the charm to capture people. They also had excellent interludes and fabulous arrangements. Now earlier there was a posting which mentioned their 9 filmfare awards. Awards do not only judge a composer. There have been many geniuses who haven't won prestigious awards. SJ won 9 filmfare awards because of their quality of music and not just popularity. The fact that they became popular added to their quality. SJ also won the PadmaShri award in 1968 which showed their contribution to the field of music as well as their greatness. SJ were geniuses and there is no denying that fact. IR is also great and there is no denying that fact either. Don't get me wrong.
  They could compose anything you could imagine be it from classical to western and to any form of music. They had both mastered Hindustani and Carnatic music and were both master arrangers as well as could play many instruments top class. Not many MD's have that to their credit. I know IR arranges, composes and plays instruments as well. SJ also set a trend for composers to become a duo. They were very innovative and fresh and made other composers look towards freshness. They have to their credit an endless repetoire and a formidable legacy.
  LP were also at the top of their mark after SJ. There is no denying that fact and LP produced chart toppers from the 60's to the 90's just as SJ did earlier. They were very successful as well and they also have an endless repetoire. The songs that LV listed about them earlier are some of their best. I know this topic has been discussed before about them, but i want your thoughts on SJ and LP and their two styles. I know LP introduced the dholak as a percussion instrument and they had that as a main instrument in many of their compositions. I think they too deserve to be ranked among the best of music composers in the history of Indian Cinema along with the other greats. They could also compose different types of songs and were good in making music for the public’s taste. You may agree or disagree with me based on what you think. Please give me your views.
  
  

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