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Mumbai Moham - What do Tamils put up with the bad and mediocre singing of Mumbai artistes?

Topic started by Indhu (@ 24.76.127.63) on Sat Dec 1 22:44:28 EST 2001.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

This is my question....Udit Narayan, Hariharan, Sadhana Sargam, Kavitha Krishnamurti,Sonu Nigam - All sing in Tamil. But their Tamil is really very bad. Are Tamils deaf, tolerant, or have no PERUMAI in their own language? Is there really a shortage of good, tamil-speaking singers? Or is this really Tamil Inferiority Complex?

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: Trend (@ 216.68.113.230) on: Thu Dec 6 09:36:08 EST 2001
  
  Sorry I forgot my email address.
  
  
• From: Fliflo (@ 146.186.113.218) on: Thu Dec 6 09:38:53 EST 2001
  
  Well, guys give a try to this..just a self-test for our tounge and lip movements. I failed in this anyway.
  
  Test 1;
  
  Vaazhai Pazha Thol Kaal Sarukki Thariyil Keezhe Vizhundhaan.
  
  Try with out a stop. One stretch. Check how best we can fold our tounge.
  
  Test 2;
  
  Sappa Duppo Dappa Dum
  
  Can you do this fast so that you get to this.
  
  Sappadu Poda Padum
  
  
  
  
• From: rajaG (@ 208.24.179.129) on: Thu Dec 6 10:11:43 EST 2001
  
  Some random thoughts:
  1. KK and Manna Dey (to quote two) got their entry into Hindi Films only because they satisfied the requirements for pronunciation and musical talents. Kishore, Anoop and Ashok were all raised in Bhopal and were probaashi baangaalis (i.e. Bengalis outside Bengal). They did not bring in any contamination to the HFM world. Manna Dey was quite fluent in Hindi, was an extra-ordinary talent in terms of singing (especially the classical variety), plus was already working as an asst. MD in the early part of his career. Please do not bring in any mis-pronunciations by these artists as an example. These were exceptions and if you search, you will find those with most artists. Plus, in those days they did not have the luxury of track recording and punching, overlays, etc so they probably went with the best available version, despite being aware of minor mistakes.
  
  2. It doesn't really matter whether SPB, KSC, SJ.....are accepted by the Hindi world or not. At least spare us the torture of listening to the murder of thamizh by Udit, Suckwinder, Sadhana,...
  
  
  
• From: rajaG (@ 208.24.179.129) on: Thu Dec 6 10:15:17 EST 2001
  
  Fliflo: If you failed in such a simple test, then you have no right in deciding whether the larger thamizh community should or should not accept transgressions in pronunciation. :-)
  
  
• From: Fliflo (@ 146.186.113.218) on: Thu Dec 6 10:21:19 EST 2001
  
  Good one. But I restrain my toungue in taking to higher altitudes, such as making a large community people to hear my prononciations. rajaG, obviously no body can decide on anything here. Coz..the matter seems to be not on pronounciation.:-0
  
  
• From: Counter (@ 208.134.115.240) on: Thu Dec 6 10:49:38 EST 2001
  
  Fliflo, you are all over the place but you are nowhere.
  
  
• From: Fliflo (@ 146.186.113.218) on: Thu Dec 6 11:00:00 EST 2001
  
  Counter, thanks for the compliment..
  
  "engumiruppan avan engum illamalum iruppaan" yaaravan? Just read very first chapter in Thirukkural
  
  Here is the comment for you,
  
  "You have no arguements to rely up on, but you poke your nose everywhere"
  
  
• From: Indhu (@ 24.76.127.63) on: Thu Dec 6 11:30:35 EST 2001
  
  Fliflo,
  
  You accuse me of taking the issue back to pronunciation/mispronunciation. So far, unless it is really hidden in a quiet corner, I am yet to see one original isight from you regarding this situation. You either try to defend the indefensible (the Mumbai imports), or you take off into some other zone with your tangential logic. It is really hard (for me, can't speak for the rest here) to see where you are going with all this...? Has this topic put you in a defensive position? Does you tamil (if you pardon my french) SUCK? Is that why you are taking issue with the topic? What exactly are you saying/defending/substantiating?
  
  Thank you very much RajaG for your posting. You took the words right out of my mouth. And just an addition: We know how long Manna-Dey lasted when he sang in Malayalam...One film? I frankly think, commercial and populist considerations aside, the tamil public in general lacks that essential REGARD and RESPECT for its language. Otherwise, how would they allow such a thing to flourish - and then applaud (and defend) its lamentable existence??
  
  
• From: Trend (@ 216.68.113.230) on: Thu Dec 6 11:45:04 EST 2001
  
  Indhu,
  
  "I frankly think, commercial and populist considerations aside, the tamil public in general lacks that essential REGARD and RESPECT for its language."
  
  This is just the "now" thing.At one point we were the ones who gave excessive importance to language over counntry and demanded(almost) a separate nation for us.As wise people say, everything has its troughs and crests.Probably tamil will revert back to its riches.
  
  But one thing we should consider is:If we had proper lyrics and pronunciation in Tamil music would our culture re-discover its riches?So, how much is Tamil music inflencing the Western or Non-Tamil Culture?
  
  "Does you tamil (if you pardon my french) SUCK?"
  
  Let's restrain ourselves with expending negative energy.
  
  
• From: Trend (@ 216.68.113.230) on: Thu Dec 6 11:46:46 EST 2001
  
  Correction:
  Let's restrain ourselves with expending negative energy.
  
  should be:
  
  Let's restrain ourselves from expending negative energy.
  
  Hope my English teacher doesn't see this.:)
  
  
• From: rajaG (@ 208.24.179.129) on: Thu Dec 6 11:51:43 EST 2001
  
  Random thoughts (continued)..
  
  3. "Public wants", "makkaL kEkkaraanga" is the biggest humbug when it comes to the Indian consumer. Most Indian consumers accept what is dished out without a demand for the better. The decision to use Udit (instead of say SPB, Mano, Sivasidhambaram, AVRamanan,......) is made by Deva, Mani Sharma,.....(MDs) or the Directors of the film or, in some cases, the actors. This is not the result of some scientific Market Research and based on "genuine makkaL viruppam". Talentless people rely on gimmicks for success. And since they cannot reproduce a "combination of the talents and gimmicks of their talented predecessors", they restrict to merely imitationg the gimmicks with hopes of success.
  
  
• From: Counter (@ 208.134.115.240) on: Thu Dec 6 11:52:55 EST 2001
  
  "You have no arguements to rely up on, but you poke your nose everywhere". Fliflo, that is exactly what I said about you.
  
  
• From: rajaG (@ 208.24.179.129) on: Thu Dec 6 11:58:44 EST 2001
  
  In continuation of No.3 above, Majority is ignorant or Majority doesn't care SHOULD NOT be misconstrued as Majority wants. A selected minority always has a responsibility to ensure that the overall population is steered in the right direction. I am all for Indhu's efforts to move the forces that maybe to ensure that "quality thamizh" is given emphasis.
  
  
• From: Fliflo (@ 130.203.169.52) on: Thu Dec 6 12:02:48 EST 2001
  
  Ok..Here are the segments of possible arguments related to this topic. Let me not go personal against anybody.
  
  1. A mumbai artist can have a good prounounciation and can sing with a different, likeable voice, to which, are we against?
  
  2. When it says mumbai, I see a great differentiation between mumbai and madras and Cochin and Madras, Hydbd. and Madras. I do hear many malayalam singers have a tilt in their tamil prounciation like many hindi singers and are we against only mumbai artists?
  
  3. If the pronounciation is in "so called" stylish format with out errors, which one do we mean as a pronounciation.
  
  4. Trend, though was a bit tilted, he brought a good, basic point. Prounciation can also differ from hearing of one to the other.
  
  5. If Asha or hariharan can render a good song in tamil, why should we against her/him, just introducing our own language barrier against!
  
  6. We just get one basic thing. Northies do not accept us. How about ARR himself then? Is it not that he is more accepted there than here.
  
  7. If the problem is a pronounciation affair then say that there are lot of malayalam singers and tamil singers too make that. Is being a northie is only factor for this segregation. Is that is not a racial feeling? Don't come with the argument that they do that. If they are pigs, do we want to be counter-pigs?
  
  8. I feel anybody has the talent can opportunity. If we want to restrict only to tamil let "a tamil producer produce, let tamil actors/actresses act let a tamil MD gives music and let only tamil viewers see". I do not think any tamil producer will come forward for that.
  
  I am more worried about the generality of this problem. In that case, my suggestion is just stick on to "pronounciation affair". Bring in all the observable defects irrespective of their race. That wud be much more sensible.
  
  
• From: Fliflo (@ 130.203.169.52) on: Thu Dec 6 12:04:10 EST 2001
  
  rajaG..no point in giving random thoughts..everybody has that..give more organised thoughts
  
  
• From: rajaG (@ 208.24.179.129) on: Thu Dec 6 12:06:41 EST 2001
  
  Random thoughts continued...
  
  4. The cause for better pronunciation of thamizh in the mass-media has been discussed many times over and over - in the TFMDF itself and in other places. On the one hand, I am tempted to refer those discussions to the participants here. However, I feel that it may kill any fresh enthusiasm (and hopefully some action out of the enthusiasm and encouragement). So I am choosing the other hand, which is to encourage Indhu's efforts and hoping for a collective action of some sort.
  
  
• From: Fliflo (@ 130.203.169.52) on: Thu Dec 6 12:09:33 EST 2001
  
  Counter..Should I answer to you..this time ok..but don't copy my stuff come something with your own..However, I just want to say one thing to you..Let's not have personal arguements here as I am totally not interested in that. Coz if we have that then only you and me have to be here
  ;-)).
  
  
• From: Indhu (@ 24.76.127.63) on: Thu Dec 6 12:15:30 EST 2001
  
  Trend that is a wonderfully inventive thing: The Prodigal Tamil!
  
  Let me see if I get this right: To re-discover our riches we should massacre a language, make it sound "exotic", and put up with the NOW crowd which does not know Yedhugai from Monai...And with time and patience, lo and behold - our language will be returned to us to re-discover, in its original glory, and all apologetic for having been led astray....
  
  Nice! Now I will take your moniker even more seriously.
  
  Frankly, I don't care about the influence of Tamil on World Culture or Western Cutlure. My concern is primarily about the influence the Tamil language of popular culture has on our new and future generations. And what are we doing to make sure it is sound and foolproof?
  
  Istead of re-discovering our riches, why not build on our riches? Couldn't really hurt (our ears, among other things) could it?
  
  Indhu
  
  Incidentally the jibe at Fliflo was not necessarily a jibe: The man/woman seems get defensive at the mere hint of the "mispronunication" angle. What's he defending? Or does the debate cut too close to the bone, for him? It was a query (admittedly, incredulous in tone, but...) Not a put-down.
  
  
• From: Fliflo (@ 130.203.169.52) on: Thu Dec 6 12:16:43 EST 2001
  
  So I am choosing the other hand, which is to encourage Indhu's efforts and hoping for a collective action of some sort.
  
  I am surprised with that statement. When there is no basis or a baseline to stand upon a collective effort would be in thousands and lead you nowhere. First of all just answer the "zeroth" question who/what/why are you against some selective people. One argument (of course from the same person) says pronounciation..other one being a northie, and third one accusing tamil mentality, feelings and sentiments. When you can not come to a proper conclusion on just one "pronounciation affair" even after 1000 arguements I definitely do not see any point in the present, collective effort.
  
  

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