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Dr.SPB , DR.KJY, M.Rafi & Kishore Kumar, who is the greatest out of these?

Topic started by Udit naryan, harihara & Kumar sanu (@ 195.92.67.65) on Fri Jan 10 12:56:43 EST 2003.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

I know it is a touch one, it is very close between Rafi & SPB, my opinion is as follows

1) SPB
2) Rafi
3) KJY
4) KK

how about yours??

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: Are Yaar (@ 203.115.31.67) on: Wed Feb 5 00:42:04 EST 2003
  
  Ali:
  
  Once again an excellent write up. But your contention that SPB has not sung songs in high pitch doen't seem to gel well.
  The list given by Rahul is quite new. There are innumerable songs of SPB where he sings in highpitch. There are songs in which the highpitch is just for one or two line and then the rest in normal.
  
  I don't have statistics on SPB as I have for ARR. I sorry for that.
  Raghu:
  If you could understand what Ali is saying and what I am trying to say, can you give some examples from SPB's side..Like songs from Kadal Ovium and other films?
  
  
• From: Raghu (@ 217.158.120.226) on: Wed Feb 5 05:22:44 EST 2003
  
  Are yaar;
  
  Few SPB's high pitched songs in the early days;
  
  1) Naanum unthan uravai - Mythili enai kathali
  2) Vaanuyrantha solaiyile - Some Mohan film
  3) Neela vaana odaiyil - Vazhve mayam
  4) Anjali Anjali - Duet
  5) Sree thambura naratha - Vijayaprdhapan (telugu dubbed movie)
  6) Mun paniya - Nandha
  7) Kanai kasakum sooriyano red - Red
  
  as far AS I KNOW these, were the high pitched SPB songs in Tamil, there may be loads more, but I am not aware of them,
  
  but I can come up with loads low pitched songs of SPB which demonstrate his heavy bass, but no time now, haha :))
  
  
• From: Are Yaar (@ 203.115.31.67) on: Wed Feb 5 06:48:54 EST 2003
  
  Good raghu:
  
  I think this song "Naanum unthan uravai " says it all. TR composed it in such a way that the full pathos in his heart is put into that. Infact, Few months before I was listening this song in a bus at around 2 AM. Imagine such a high pitch song and during a time when everybody was sleeping in the bus..No body complained...because the song, the voice and the whole effect was so perfect that if you need to complaint then your would have needed some better reason than disturbance to sleep.
  
  
• From: Sundar (@ 61.11.75.120) on: Wed Feb 5 06:49:59 EST 2003
  
  Ali
  
  Your analysis and knowledge on music deserve credit.
  In as much as you are a harmonium player, I am a singer with reasonable range of voice, though i need to improve my mantra sthayee(lower octave).
  I sang 'oh dunia ke rakwalwe' in one of the local
  competition and It was sort of my life time dream to even dare to render the song. I got first prize and many from the audience told me that I came very close to the original.Same way I have sung some of TMS old numbers. actually TMS in my opinion could reach higher notes than even Rafi in the 1950's.
  In fact 'Naan Petra selvam' ninainthu-- nenjam uruguthe''annaiyai pol oru deivam' 'vasantha mullai'etc., have been sung at very pitch with amazing ease.
  Unfortunately he did not maintain his voice and fell aside though in 'Pattum Naane' he once again showed his class in singing at high octave.
  
  As a singer I have found it very difficult to sing some of these numbers. You seem to have undermined TMS's ability to sing in high pitch/higher octave.
  
  In case of SPB, your remarks on his range is not right. while he may not reach to the scale of TMS or Rafi he is certainly an excellent singer in higher octaves. There are many examples to this .
  'anajali..from duet or 'Munpaniya'are the recent examples.
  
  Low -mid applies to KJY. and low-part mid applies to PBS. Unni is only middle .
  
  Rafi did not sound in the mantra sthayee as good as he did in the high octave. this is a fact and there is nothing bad about it. MD ramanathan was probably the only one to sing in atimantra stahyee
  SG Kittapa could sing in 6 kattai shruthi. TR mahalingam was also in that category. But they can not be considered to have a complete range.
  
  SPB is one of the few singers including Rafi, TMS(in his hey days) who could traverse between low and middle and high.
  
  
  
• From: Are Yaar (@ 203.115.31.67) on: Wed Feb 5 06:50:53 EST 2003
  
  Another song,
  
  "Megangal ennai vittu ponadhundu" from Amarkalam.
  
  Ali:
  You need to listen to this song.
  I am more interested to read you than indulge in SPB/rafi fight. But I would very well like to know your comment on some of the songs listed.
  Oflate SPB is given several highpitch songs.
  
  
• From: Raghu (@ 217.158.120.226) on: Wed Feb 5 11:21:15 EST 2003
  
  Sundar;
  
  Your remarks on TMS are indeed true, but he did have very high pitched voice, unlike SPB, who has very low pitched voice, TMS sounded like he always sing with a strain, but on the other hand, I have never heard SPB straining in his voice!
  
  you are again right about PBS, whom, I like very much, never heard PBS go beyond 5 kattai shruthi :-)
  
  although SPB is excellent at High pitched songs, I prefer his low pitched songs.
  
  I hear you are singer, so am I, but I have not learnt Carntic music properly, could you please help me with some songs, can you please send me an email, my email ID is
  
  anston60@hotmail.com
  
  many thanks
  
  
• From: Raghu (@ 217.158.120.226) on: Wed Feb 5 11:25:08 EST 2003
  
  Are Yaar;
  
  yes "Megangal ennai vittu ponadhundu" was indeed an excellent song by SPB, but what about "Satham illatha thanimai ketten" from the same movie (Amarkalam), where SPB reaches the highest ultimate octave, at the end?, boy it is tooooooooooooo difficult man :-), my throat will explode, if I try it.
  
  
• From: fan (@ 202.9.148.147) on: Thu Feb 6 00:31:28 EST 2003
  
  spb is versatile and his voice divine. that makes him no.1
  
  
• From: Are Yaar (@ 203.115.31.67) on: Thu Feb 6 03:17:35 EST 2003
  
  Raghu:
  I did not mention that song as there was a debate about the song on some technical gimic. Like the whole song was not taken in one go. The MD recorded the song in parts and joined it. It was supposed to be a song with out a break. The MD BW composed the song after the hit album Breathless by SM. Ofcourse IR did this gimic long before, which most of the Indian don't know.
  
  So, I quoted the "megangal" song, because some body will come a argue with me with the above points...
  
  I think I am missing Ali here.
  
  
• From: Raghu (@ 217.158.120.226) on: Thu Feb 6 04:55:20 EST 2003
  
  Are yaar;
  
  >>I did not mention that song as there was a debate about the song on some technical gimic. Like the whole song was not taken in one go. The MD recorded the song in parts and joined it. It was supposed to be a song with out a break. The MD BW composed the song after the hit album Breathless by SM. Ofcourse IR did this gimic long before, which most of the Indian don't know.
  <<
  
  Yes, that's 100% true, SPB/KJY/KSC attended a concert in London, in 2001, I was there, SPB as usual too humble, he said that "Satham illatha" was indeed a technical gimmick, and he did sing the song on the stage, and he only took breath twice, the whole audience stood with thundering applause! u c, many singers would not talk about these things in front of public!
  
  
• From: Ali (@ ) on: Fri Feb 21 12:10:10 EST 2003
  
  Vocal range in its purest definition is the range of notes that a singing voice can encompass. A vocal range of about C above the treble clef to about middle C is the range of a soprano (a term used to describe the highest pitched vocal range).
  The range from F in the top of the treble clef to F below middle C is the alto range (originally the alto was used to describe a high male voice, which reached the range of a female alto).
  The range from G above middle to C below middle C would be that of a tenor. In the 16th century of western classical music, the tenor was usually referred to as the melody part.
  Lastly, the range of middle C to C below the bass clef would be the range of a bass. In more simpler terms, bass range is from F just below the bass clef to the E above middle C
  It is also known as the lowest or deepest male voice.
  
  When I mentioned in my last post that the voice range of SPB was from about low to mid, I meant this in the general sense. Sure I agree that SPB can reach high pitches as he has shown in some of his songs but the point I made was that his range is in the area of about a C below the bass clef to the middle C with the ability to reach an higher note. Mind you, if I was talking about just reaching high notes then I would have included a singer such as Mukesh as well because he also had the ability to hit a higher note. His vocal range for the most part stood between a middle C to a low D above the middle C. He also had an excellent bass voice for the most part.
  Let me just rewind to an old saying which says that its not how you reach a point, its what you do at that point that counts. Many singers who have the ability to reach high notes, for the most part reach that point and do not maintain that level in their songs. Its one thing to touch a high note for some time and it is another thing to continuously experiment at that level. TMS did have the ability to reach high scales but he did not experiment enough at that level in his songs.
  
  Lack of experimentation you can say is the inability of the voice to maintain at such a pitch for a long period of time. Most singers who try and do this end up getting shrills in their voices. This is what sets Rafi apart from other male singers. Rafi when reaching high pitches could not only maintain that pitch but his voice continued getting better at that level which is why he could experiment with different notes in his songs when singing at a high pitch.
  Also, the common opinion in this forum that Rafi could not sing or did not sound as good at low pitches is far off track. Rafi had the ability to maintain a bass voice and has showed this in many of his songs. Infact he had the ability to sing in a bass voice and reach a very high pitch at the same time.
  
  Most singers experiment with their voices at their normal range or with lower notes because they know their voices are suited to that level. Experimentation with higher notes is very difficult and requires excessive training.
  SPB made a comment one time that when he listens to Rafi he doesn’t even feel like half a singer. Such was the ability of that man to reach different levels which is proof of the fact that the majority of male singers consider Rafi to be their idol.
  
  Now coming to the song ‘O Duniya Ke Rakhwale’, the original song was set at a very high pitch that is very hard to replicate. SPB made a comment about this song and described it as "impossible" when you hear the last part of it. The levels at which he has sung this song requires a singer who can scale all notes efectively and maintain that level. When Rafi sang this song at his concert in 1979, he brought in a new raaga into the song and made up his own tune for the part “mehle udas” which was very mind-blowing. Rafi had such a deep knowledge of classical raaga’s that he was able to do this. The original of this song is very very hard to replicate and only a rare talent such as Rafi can come close to singing this song.
  
  Are Yaar, you wanted me to comment on those songs sung by SPB. Though these songs do reach high notes at times and are variably sung at a high pitch, you cannot compare them to the high-pitch songs Rafi has sung because they are totally at different levels. As I mentioned before about experimenting at that level.
  
  If almost every artist points out Rafi as the ultimate, I don’t know why people still compare others to him. It’s just not possible to do this. Naushad was absolutely right when he said that a knot in music has been broken when Rafi passed away.
  I am not saying you can shun out talents such as SPB or others but you cannot compare them to Rafi. As ST said a long time ago, there are far too may aspects of Rafi's singing for him to be compared to anyone.
  
  
• From: st (@ 212.153.190.3) on: Thu Feb 27 06:24:08 EST 2003
  
  Ali,
  In fact there are so many aspects that everytime i wrote something about Rafi,i realized that i could have explained better. Simple put , god has been most partial to him..he is the best. By the way, i see that many of your postings have a sizeable extract from my old postings.No probs as long as u use them the way i intended to.
  I however would differ with ur views on TMS.
  I dont agree that he didnt have control over sustained high pitches. The only reason TMS doesnt come into these equations is because he was a "period" singer with restricted versetality.
  
  

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