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Raja's theoritical Approach:

Topic started by D.Srikanth (@ slip-32-101-16-226.il.us.ibm.net) on Sun Oct 4 11:31:55 EDT 1998.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Raja's theoritical Approach

Yesterday I was in a telephonic discussion with Shashi - (also a DF'er) about Raja's decline in the market.

Essence of our discussion:

We all know Raja writes his score without touching any instrument. This has paved a way for Raja to become very alogorithamic. He is forced into this as he is not hearing it, meaning his scores are very theoritical. A good western classical musician will predict Raja's score after hearing few bars.
He has to change this type of composing, he has to compose something new using his HEART instead of his BRAIN . We were able to calculate the bar lengths of the counter points and BGM that he would place, everything Proved to be very very theoritical approach.
Though theoritically scores are complicated, over a period of time it starts sounding the same for a musical illitrate (masses)

Many of his greatest fans are here this DF (including me), as a responsible fan we can find more about this and convey the message to him somehow.


Statutory Warning: This topic is not to hurt Raja's ablity, there is no doubt in his ablity .I know the fact writing theoritical music is not easy. Theoritically anything is complicated.


D.Srikanth

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: Mukund (@ sdwwwgw01.sd.nmp.nokia.com) on: Tue Oct 6 13:39:17 EDT 1998
  
  Hi guys,
  
  I will agree to the point that his quality may be got reduced in 1990 till advent of ARR. But after that his quality has improved tremendously. In fact, his style has so many variations these days.
  
  Hi Shashi,
  
  Did you feel a response was not necessary for my posting :-) Let me know something.
  
  Mukund
  
  
• From: SR Kaushik (@ sol31.cs.wisc.edu) on: Tue Oct 6 14:05:02 EDT 1998
  
  Another point in favour of this "Theoretical" approach to his monotonous songs is that people like Deva are able to imitate him. I think this in itself speaks of the predictability of his general and unenthusiastic compositions.
  
  But its wrong to think that he is not changing styles nowadays. He has changed his style drastically after the advent of ARR. The flute and viloin are being used much lesser now than before. The keyboard is being used much more often. He gets inspired lesser now, only occasiobally for movies like Avatharam, Guru, etc. An index of this is the reduction in the number of great flute pieces. I am yearning for him to give those superb flute pieces of the 80s. His approach has become much more jazzy, sometimes WC, but rarely folk. He does give the "Veera thaalaattu" kind of songs but gone are those melodious folk songs with exceptional flute pieces.
  
  
• From: Shashi (@ eed02990.mayo.edu) on: Tue Oct 6 14:10:06 EDT 1998
  
  Dear Mukund
  
  I once again went thru your posting. It has a lot of questions. Can you repost the ones we can discuss
  
  Thanks
  
  
• From: Sridhar Seetharaman (@ 128.96.140.26) on: Tue Oct 6 14:20:35 EDT 1998
  
  Vijay,
  
  Raja has used five beat pattern as early as "En Kalyaana vaibhogam Unnodu Thaan". BTW, Jatin-Lalit used five beat pattern in "Khamoshi", sung by Kumar Sanu. It is interesting to note that you consider "Meetatha Oru veenai" not to be very melodious.
  
  Al along, I have been talking about a song as a whole. This includes orchestration and the melody itself. I have given more emphasis on the orchestration because very good melodies could be spoiled with poor orchestration. For e.g, "Kanaa Kaanum" from Agni Saatchi".
  
  
• From: Mukund (@ sdwwwgw01.sd.nmp.nokia.com) on: Tue Oct 6 15:04:46 EDT 1998
  
  Dear Shashi,
  
  The gist of my posting is this. The theoretical approach is a technique to express the thought to the musicians only. The final result is influenced more so by primary factors like motivation, than by the whether this technique is used or not.
  
  I said we guys would have felt that if he chooses to pass on more improvisations to his musicians the staleness in songs were due to his inability to elicit more outof his fellow musicians.
  
  He had composed like any other guy only. Only in later periods when he was comfortable in thinking he went into this approach. He would have certainly nailed out all the flaws in it at that time.
  
  As for the percentages I feel more like Kaushik in the previous thread.
  
  Mukund
  
  
• From: Shashi (@ eed02958.mayo.edu) on: Tue Oct 6 16:49:05 EDT 1998
  
  Dear Mukund
  
  Regarding your statement that the theoretical approach is a technique to express the thought to musicians only is true. But it is only part of the truth. Even a composer who uses traditional medthods of composing (such as sit with the lyricist and song and go over different possibilities on the harmonium), after they are done composing finally hands over the individual notations to the instrumentalists either as western notes or more traditionally Indian notes (Sa ri ga. etc). Although most traditional composers when they see their composition being played(so far as I have seen) will spontaneously change their thoughts/notes and will ask an instrumentalist for example to play "antha Ga Pa Sa bit'a koncham maathi Ga Pa Da Pa Sa'nu vaasingo" or something like that. If it sounds better they may choose to keep it or revert back to their original thoughts if it does not satisfy them and work more on those notes.
  
  The theoretical approach I am talking about also involves the process of thinking about the notes itself. However much you can hear all the notes in your head when you play a musical peice and are not quite satisfied with it; and you are playing around with the instrument and quite accidently or just in the process of doing whatever you touch a note or a series of notes that you did not even think about because it wouldn't have been in your thinking routine. Then something magical happens--you say--Yes thats it--thats the note or whatever you have been looking for and continue on with your composition from there.
  
  Maybe you might argue that Raja can hear all the notes and even try to set up accidental/random events in his head--quite possible--but I feel however much you try you cannot create a random event (reason--still you are the creator and the event is not completely independent of you). People may argue that even when you touch the harmonium it is you who is touching it--the answer to it is sometimes you will be surprised by what your hand can do accidently when it is not voluntarily trying to do something!!?
  
  But I agree this is pretty stupid of me to suggest this and thats the reason why I would rather suggest that Raja just try to compose for prewritten lyrics. This I am sure will make him come up with ways he wouldn't have even thought about in his own mind.
  
  Yes, the final result is influenced by motivation also; but challenging him would help too. I cannot do much about his motivation. In fact I feel if he is not motivated enough to do a song--he just shouldn't do it--Not for commercial reasons anyway--then he becomes more of a business and less of art--consequently less of creativity and all the good stuff...If he wants he should take more breaks, take more time inbetween songs etc to revitalize himself.
  
  I am not sure how much confident we can be about Raja nailing down all the flaws with his approach. I agree he is comfortable with it but even in obstacle courses after you have repeated it enough times you are comfortable. Hey that is the reason why we so eagerly watch the Wimbledon finals--the champ has to overcome the obstacles the opponent quite literally throws on your court. We could not stand to watch the champ play wonderfully against a "ball throwing machine"--because even the machine however random it may be is still run by an algorithm and cannot come up with the stunning variations which a 'live' opponent may throw. Moreover that live opponent likely changes yearly or atleast his game gas evolved and is never the same. (Unless offcourse it is Ivan Lendl??!)
  
  Regarding the percentages it is a rough figure and everybody can have their own percentages so far as it is still within the standard deviation.
  
  Bye
  
  
• From: Doubtful (@ elroy.cs.wisc.edu) on: Tue Oct 6 18:16:12 EDT 1998
  
  Shashi: I could not follow your analogy between Wimbledon finals and IR correcting his flaws.
  
  
• From: Shashi (@ fw1xlate1.mayo.edu) on: Tue Oct 6 20:12:36 EDT 1998
  
  Hi again
  
  I apologize for not explaining my example of the Wimbledon finals clearly.
  
  what I meant to say was that the champ is celebrated because he could come up with a fitting reply to any volley fired at him. These volleys which the champ overcomes can be thought of as challenges posed to him. Similarly, we can see the champ in Raja only if he is sufficiently challenged (for that matter anybody). One way is to come up with interesting situations for him to compose--this is dependent on the director. Another way is to come up with excellent lyrics first and asking him to compose. Raja for some reason conveniently disposes of the lyricist as not being upto the mark. Maybe so, but then why does he allow these same lyricists to write for his music? They are adding dirt to his string of pearls--is it not?
  
  I think the prewritten lyrics is problematic for any composer, but that is exactly the opponents volley that Raja has to overcome to be the champ. He has done it and he can do it. Trying to show that he has introduced many variations but he would only do it on his own wish and will and neither the lyricists nor the directors (this was and is still a problem) cannot and should not challenge me is like playing against a machine and improving your game. Also most probably you figured out the machine's algorithm and that is the reason why you feel so comfortable you can compete against it. To win a fair game you have to take all challenges and prove your mettle.
  
  One other example of a song composed for prewritten lyrics quite recently--Mannil indha kadhal... in Keladi Kanmani--the melody in this song shows what Raja's championship capabilities.
  
  Bye
  
  
• From: N.C. Ramakrishna (@ spider-ta011.proxy.aol.com) on: Tue Oct 6 23:51:11 EDT 1998
  
  Hi guys
  
  After going thru all the postings again I think I can summarise the following.
  
  1) IR has done the best in the past
  2) He has delivered when challenge is thrown on him
  3) Everybody beleives in him even after 20 odd years of service . He is capable of doing it again 4) But why he is not doing which is the main conern of everybody.
  
  The reasons are given depending upon the intellect and feelings of each individual. But one thing everybody agrees I guess is that the present guys are not doing the good job. If these guys would have done a better job, I guess there wouldnt have been talk about IR. Since we dont have confidence in the new guys we are going back by beleiving the old statement OLD IS GOLD. since we are know IR has done great.
  
  I dont know whether people complained or felt like this when there was a transition between MSV and IR. I dont know whether people that time thought MSV should do something because IR was not doing great?
  
  But can we come to a common opinion to find a solution and act upon that so that TFM would live even after year 2000? The degradation in TFM I think is not just because IR is not delivering. If that is the case then our problem will be solved very easily. There is something more than that which is more complicated.
  
  Why dont we do something more than just posting our views to keep TFM alive? Why dont somebody like Srikanth, Shashi( I dont know many names who are capable. From the postings I came to this opinion about Srikanth and Shashi) who are capable of doing great take an initiative for which I think everybody will definitely support?
  
  All these number of postings definitely shows the depression in TFM lovers. Are we not thinking that where are the kind of great songs we heard in past?
  
  Thanks
  
  
• From: vaithy (@ ) on: Sat Sep 6 16:00:21 EDT 2003
  
  ir is so rare a talent that to repeat, match or even imitate what he has done is going to be very very difficult. need someone equally original.
  
  

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