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IR-ARR usage of instruments

Topic started by cram (@ 206.103.12.102) on Sat Apr 15 02:38:14 EDT 2000.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

get ready for another round, guys (timepass panna venaam:-))]. no IR or ARR bashing, please, muthallaye sollitten. let's just discuss how each of them has used various instruments. for instance, IR's use of acoustic guitar is unparalleled, while ARR rarely uses it. similarly, IR `pales' before ARR when it comes to electric guitar or keyboards (strictly IMHO, everyone's welcome to disagree). start shooting.

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: suresh (@ dedicated-149.chn.vsnl.net.in) on: Fri Apr 28 00:09:32 EDT 2000
  
  srikanth, rjay & friends
  
  it's been a highly illuminating experience to learn from your vast fount of music knowledge
  
  i'd like to hear your thoughts on the chorus/ humming of
  1 e thendrale (nenjathai killadhe)
  2 ponnoviyam kandenamma (Kazhugu)
  3 guru sharanam (Guru)
  
  many thanks
  
  
  
  
• From: S (@ wwwgate31.motorola.com) on: Fri Apr 28 00:20:30 EDT 2000
  
  I always felt Raja's chorus was never his strong point.....thanks srikanth for reinforcing my belief. I've had a lot of discussions with my friends on this and they always had argued that Raja had a good chorus....While I didn't know these tech aspects of this, I always thot why is the touch given by John Williams or Goldsmith missing in Raja's chorus...
  
  
• From: srikanth (@ 63.226.195.122) on: Fri Apr 28 02:11:36 EDT 2000
  
  suresh,
  guru saranam has a wonderful chorus, especially the start, the mood is really wonderful
  if you note, quality of the singes, they have really rendered it well.
  
  
• From: srikanth (@ 63.226.195.122) on: Fri Apr 28 02:46:51 EDT 2000
  
  Usage of tabla,
  Many blame raja for using tabla a little more than required, i dont think so, he did what the director want him to do, since he is from a village background, he knows to use it well,
  
  but IMHO:tabla was put best to use by msv,
  Basically msv had Prasad, a gifted tabla artist, he is really enthued a lot while playing it,
  he gives more feel to the tabla, msv composes specially for this him.
  I am amazed by the vanakkam palamurai sonnen,
  ragangal 16, the tabla patterns flows like river
  the variations are so good, i request peopel to try and listen to these songs.
  
  
  Rajas tabla pieces are often nice and simple, but we cannot discount, there are some complicated things he gave but as a majority were very nice soft and simple, he often used the same pattern through out the song, IMHO there were lesser number of variations in his nadai, one big reason i feel is he might have wanted to be different from msv, so he might have avoided msv's style of tabla nadai etc, I am amazed by pon malai pozuthu, simple soft tabla score.
  
  
  Arr, he uses tabla as a jit component
  just in time, it is activated and released, when required it will be placed, also he removed the myth of village songs should have tabla, athankara marame..was new and he uses ghatam along spanish guitar,
  look for jit in acham acham illai from indira, his tabla is not complicated reason being he uses them just for 8+ bars at a strech.
  so no complications., but the placement is so apt that makes it sound good.
  
  Did anyone make an attempt to answer my trivia,
  in oh oh megam vandaho song, there is place where raja has used mirudangam so neatly, can you find it?
  
  
  
  
• From: hari (@ dail.pppmad.vsnl.net.in) on: Fri Apr 28 04:57:34 EDT 2000
  
  srikanth,
  
  nice tabla by ARR in July Maadham.
  
  hari
  
  
• From: Vijay (@ l-coe014.win.icaen.uiowa.edu) on: Fri Apr 28 06:31:43 EDT 2000
  
  Hai
  Can somebody tell me which midi number (I have a KORG X3) Rahman likes the most?
  
  
• From: Krishnan (@ fw2.torolab.ibm.com) on: Fri Apr 28 11:01:23 EDT 2000
  
  I have John Williams twin CD pack (1969-1999) consisting of many of his famous theme/BGM music. I have listened to it a couple of times. I agree that his chorus has a special effect in them. I really like those. With regard to Raja's chorus effect, I cannot completely agree that he is weak in that, I can surely say that he has some wonderful chorus effect. The two songs that instantly comes to my mindis 1) Meenamma Meenamma's second interlude 2) Alli Sundaravalli's second interlude. In "Meenam...", as far as I remember the chorus is not accompanied by any other music. In "Alli...", I think the chorus is accompanied by some instrument (I need to listen to it again...I am not sure what instrument it is..).
  
  I was greatly impacted by these two chorus (out of these two again, I would say the best is "Meenamma.." chorus). The trumpet following the chorus in "Meenamma.." is just great again.
  
  Krishnan
  
  
• From: srikanth (@ 216.190.255.35) on: Fri Apr 28 12:21:03 EDT 2000
  
  Krishanan,
  Rajas chorus were never weak,
  they were always good, the examples you have given speaks more....
  the quality of the chorus singers were not upto mark, and there was not a huge shift in style of chorus from the pre-raja times, chorus were used to hum or sing lala lala.
  
  
• From: MS (@ 129.252.22.9) on: Fri Apr 28 12:23:23 EDT 2000
  
  My picks for IR's choral harmony:
  
  (1)ennuLLe ennuLLE
  (2)guru sharanam
  (3)yEdho mOgam
  (4)unnai ethirpaarththEn
  (5)muththirai ippOthu kuththidu thappaathu
  (6)azagu aayiram
  (7)devanin kOvil
  (8)aadum nEram ithu thaan
  (9)en iniya pon nilaaavE
  (10)raajaadhi raajan intha raja
  (11)puthu maappiLaikku
  (12)kaadhal Oviyam paadum kaaviyam
  
  (enna vandhukittE irukku ?..mmm..)
  
  
• From: Srinath (@ 205.252.37.3) on: Fri Apr 28 12:37:34 EDT 2000
  
  MS:
  Adhu vandhukitte irukkum.... :-)
  
  
• From: pg (@ gate02.merck-medco.com) on: Fri Apr 28 12:41:14 EDT 2000
  
  kodiyilE malliyappoo - kadalOra kavidhaigaL
  oorOrama Athuppakkam - pagal nilavu
  
  
• From: rjay (@ brkfw0005.navistar.com) on: Fri Apr 28 12:58:44 EDT 2000
  
  Why do you need chorus in songs?
  
  Simplest form of chorus is group singing.
  Even that can lift a melody and enrich it.
  (ae ayya samy, thanthana thanthana). This
  is the chorus that usually is demanded by
  context.
  
  Next improvement could be 2 part or 3 part
  harmony where two people may sing same
  melody starting at different notes.
  (April mayilae?)
  
  Harder still is to compose countermelodies
  for same phrase. (Sakiyae) (vocal harmony)
  (Ennullae ennullae, makalir mattum)
  
  And most difficult and amazing
  is the use of totally different melodic
  ideas(raasavae unnai naan, raasathi ennusiru)
  
  Raja has used chorus unique manner in the following songs:
  
  1. Andhi mazhai pozhikiradhu - haunting
  intro. Chorus theme and countermelody in flute.
  
  2. Raasavae unnai naan ennithan: uses
  chorus girls to do many functions like
  drone, rhythm, lead instruments, choir, lots
  of things! I feel it served lots of inspiration for Raasaathi.
  
  3. Vocal harmonies in April Mayilae, Vaa Vaa
  vanna malarae, Ennullae Ennullae, Raja
  Rajadhi rajanindha raja. (Smaiyiyayee of
  the late 80s?). Ennuyirae from PTKavalkaran.
  
  4. In some authentic tamil folk tunes he has used
  chorus. sometimes plain singalong
  chorus (even that can be effective), sometimes
  harmonies, sometimes counter melodies.
  
  Naan aerikkarai melirindhu
  Meham karukkaiyilae
  Unnai kanum neram nenjil interludes.
  
  
  And he used the chorus singing thatthakaaram,
  (thandhana-thandhana) as his signature sound in
  many songs:
  Thamthana thamthana Thaalam varum
  Amman kovil kizhakkalae
  
  5. Male folk chorus: (Influenced by fishermen
  group songs - malayalam folk?) (most of it is plain chorus)
  Thayaara thayya thayyara thayya (a classic!)
  Kadaloram kadaloram
  
  
  MSV's use of chorus in Engae nimmadhi is outstanding. Also in Azhagiya thamizh magal,
  ponmagal vandhal, it performs a grand
  function. I was thinking MSV never touched
  harmony, but when you listen now, he has
  used quite a bit of harmony. WHat this means
  is when I listened first, I did not know
  harmony!! I usually think Raja was the first
  MD to make dramatic use of silence and dropping
  in and out of instruments to emphasize their
  presence and individuality. Instruments in his
  BGMs changed from being accompaniment instruments
  to additional singers. By dramatic (on/off) use
  of ideas and instruments, he makes us notice them
  individually and name them. This statement is
  again a sweeping generalization and please take it
  with caution.
  
  
  
  
  
• From: ECHO (@ hobbiton.org) on: Fri Apr 28 13:03:39 EDT 2000
  
  pg, second song from idhayakovil
  
  
• From: rjay (@ brkfw0005.navistar.com) on: Fri Apr 28 13:04:53 EDT 2000
  
  Rahman's use of vocal harmonies in Smayiyayee
  has been discussed many times in this forum,
  and I feel it is a milestone in vocal harmony
  (worldwide).
  
  Just a side quiz, (in the manner of Srikanth).
  The line in charanam, starting - 'Kaadaalin
  tha na na tha naa na nae'. is a wonderful
  line and sounded too fresh idea to me, but soon
  I remembered the same melody line from an old
  song. Anybody game?
  
  
• From: Krishnan (@ fw2.torolab.ibm.com) on: Fri Apr 28 13:13:29 EDT 2000
  
  Agreed Srikanth. Also, I will listen to the "oh oh megam vandaho song" and let you know if I find, where the mridangam is used. I have listened to this song a couple of times, but I dont remember to have noticed mridangam. Anyways, I will listen to it today (or weekend) and let you know. I am also very curious to know.
  
  I am listening to the second interlude of "Alli...". One more observation, after a few seconds of (2 seconds) of chorus, one more chorus joins and from point till the end of the chorus, its two chorus overlapped. This creates a nice effect. The instrument accompanying is probably some keyboard sounds. I am not very technically sound, so I am not able to tell the exact sound.
  
  Krishnan
  
  
• From: rjay (@ brkfw0005.navistar.com) on: Fri Apr 28 13:29:09 EDT 2000
  
  Srikanth
  
  I replayed the song in mind and
  found the answer to your question!
  Nice observation!
  
  Rjay
  
  
• From: Krishna (@ mailserver01.sb.com) on: Fri Apr 28 13:46:16 EDT 2000
  
  Krishnan:
  
  I agree with you regarding IR's chorus. Along with "Meenamma" song, the song "malaiyala kariyoram" also had great chorus in it. I'll add to those songs listed by you songs like, "Eh Tehndrale" from Nenjathai Killadhe, Chittirai Chevvanam from Kattrinele Varum Geetham, "meenkodi Theril" from Karumbu Vil, "Thottam Kanda Rasaave" from Pagalil Oru Iravu.."adi addu poongilye" from Kali, "Ponnoviyam' from Kazhugu, songs from Athma, Azhage Unnai Aradhikeren (song sung by four singers, Kaaki Chattai, Annai Oru Alayam, Johnny, Alaigal Oyvadhillai, Garjani songs..can list a lot of them with great chorus.
  
  Also the voice harmony of the recent types can be found in songs from Kannukoru Vannakili (movie from 1988 ..not released), "Kadhal Oviyam" from Alaigal Oyvadhilai. I am sure there are other songs but I dont remmebr them now..but I'll listen to my old collections again.
  
  
• From: Murali Rangan (@ apollo.pointbase.com) on: Fri Apr 28 13:55:13 EDT 2000
  
  'Kathum Kadal' of Kattumarakkaran is an great song! There is an amazing voice harmony in the second interlude.
  
  'Dass Dass' song from Kadalorak Kavidhaigal has excellent choral arrangements in both the interludes. Heard best with a head phone, appidiye yengeyo poyiralam.
  
  Sure, indha list vandhukitte irukkum!
  
  - Murali
  
  

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