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IR-ARR usage of instruments

Topic started by cram (@ 206.103.12.102) on Sat Apr 15 02:38:14 EDT 2000.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

get ready for another round, guys (timepass panna venaam:-))]. no IR or ARR bashing, please, muthallaye sollitten. let's just discuss how each of them has used various instruments. for instance, IR's use of acoustic guitar is unparalleled, while ARR rarely uses it. similarly, IR `pales' before ARR when it comes to electric guitar or keyboards (strictly IMHO, everyone's welcome to disagree). start shooting.

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: srikanth (@ host2.cvs.aa.net) on: Thu Apr 27 12:13:12 EDT 2000
  
  vijay, I think you missed my first posting on this song...
  :)
  
  
• From: Velaiyaththavan (@ 129.252.22.9) on: Thu Apr 27 12:53:22 EDT 2000
  
  guys, romba nEramaa niRaiya padippu vishyangaLaa pEsiyaachchu (thx to RJ , sriks et al)..romba padichchaa bore adikkum. anybody for some play aka adithadi ? :-)konjam saNdai pOtta mid fresh aayidum. thirumbi class la nalla gavanikkalaam ? anybody game ?
  
  J
  
  
• From: hihi:-) (@ psiphi.umsl.edu) on: Thu Apr 27 13:15:22 EDT 2000
  
  vElai
  
  you are really a vElaiyaththavan :-)))
  
  
• From: o{-_-}o (@ 216.87.101.181) on: Thu Apr 27 13:29:45 EDT 2000
  
  IR rules.......end of matter.
  
  
• From: Velaiyaththavan (@ 129.252.22.9) on: Thu Apr 27 13:50:25 EDT 2000
  
  thx.
  
  oru chinna grammar mistake (or could be spelling mistake.)
  
  IR ruled (s and d are close on keyboard)
  
  appuram not end but "start of matter."
  
  :-)
  
  
• From: Prasanna Venkatesh (@ 202.9.148.57) on: Thu Apr 27 14:15:44 EDT 2000
  
  Hello ppl:
  I am a new person on the block (directed here by my friend who actively participates). I am kind of neutral as far as IR and ARR are concerned. One observation that I would like to make is that IR has lived most of his life with single track recording and live instrumentation etc whereas Rahman started off with techno stuff. That apart, I have noticed that Rahman uses flutes and their variation extremely well - One excellent piece is that in "Maargazhi thingal allava " from SANGAMAM. Try to follow the flute piece - amazing variations. Also, the use of strings - you will notice in most songs that his chords are string chords which switch from one to another (if at all they do) very smoothly. IR has used more of rhythm guitars and piano chords with brilliant (to say the least) chord progressions. That's about what I can think of now. Will write later.
  
  
• From: rjay (@ brkfw0005.navistar.com) on: Thu Apr 27 16:08:44 EDT 2000
  
  Prasanna,
  Thanks for pointing out Rahman's flute variations
  and welcome to the thread.
  
  Rahman has played flute in unique ways in
  (i) intro of 'Vaadi saathukkudi', almost like
  chirping birds. very innovative use.
  (ii) intro of 'poralae ponnuthayee'
  (iii) a mini-flute-quartet in Ennavalae
  interlude. It is constructed with
  classical indian melodies but like
  a western symphony section, the
  flutes play themes and counterthemes
  and reach a climax with tabla/mridhangam
  accompaniment!
  (iv) intro of usilampatti: a flute call
  imitates the kokkarakkoooko and
  another flute responds to it, both
  of them cannot be notated at all!
  
  
  Ennavalae interlude reminds me of Raja's flute solo intro in
  Kaviyam padavaa thendralae (IT). Just the flute
  and bird chirps. Notice that whenever the flute
  does a pitch jump (almost an octave) the birds flutter!
  Rich imagination!
  
  Vaadi sathukudi also features a wonderful
  percussive fill (bongo?) that rounds up every
  section and leads to the pallavi. I have never
  heard that phrase pattern before.
  'tha-tatta takta tukudu?' It gives an unusual
  laid back feeling to hear that piece! Shashi
  being a percussionist, if he is reading this
  thread, can refer if he has heard that before. And
  others too.
  
  The song also borrows note-for-note from a famous KadhanaKudhoogalam piece, (I dont know which
  compostion but have heard it in nadaswaram
  many times) here played by the string section. Veenai
  usage is great too. It is one of the less popular
  songs of Rahman.
  
  ***
  
  Raja's use of Orchestral harp and pizzicato
  flute and veenai in Nee paadhi naan paadhi
  kannae is excellent.
  
  Rahman favors the pizzicato a lot
  (Ennavalae backup, thirakkadha kaatuukullae
  echoes)
  
  ***
  
  I think Raja was the first to introduce the
  bass flute sound to TFM. (Naanae naana intro
  comes to mind mind.)
  
  Vizhiyilae malarndhadhu intro and Senthoorappoovae
  first interlude, Kovil mani osai thannai intro have a unique flute sound. I could not figure
  it out for a long time. In a stage program of
  Gangai amaran (on TV) I saw that two flutes played
  the pieces an octave apart to create the new
  texture.
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
• From: rjay (@ brkfw0005.navistar.com) on: Thu Apr 27 16:10:09 EDT 2000
  
  Prasanna
  You are neutral towards both Raja and ARR?
  I am biased towards both!
  ;)
  RJAY
  
  
• From: srikanth (@ host2.cvs.aa.net) on: Thu Apr 27 16:29:05 EDT 2000
  
  
  pizzicato --- pluking the vilon strings without using bow.
  Arr uses this very nicely in ottakatha kattiko..
  
  
  
  
  
  
• From: srikanth (@ host2.cvs.aa.net) on: Thu Apr 27 16:31:31 EDT 2000
  
  this sound can be found somewhere from tone 45-to 50 in general midi keyboards.
  
  
  
• From: rjay (@ brkfw0005.navistar.com) on: Thu Apr 27 17:00:00 EDT 2000
  
  A good fusion piece in TFM is
  Poovae sempoovae. I am sure it must have
  been discussed in these pages many times.
  
  I just wanted to refer to the neat
  bass guitar, tabla, piano, string
  turbulent interplay (during one of the
  interludes) as a great example of
  seamless fusion. The begining has a
  good bass flute and acoustic guitar
  ballad intro. Reminds me of Uravugal
  thodarkadhai.
  
  Another song similar to this is Kavidhai
  Kelungal Karuvil pirandhadhu naadham.
  The use of Hindustani bol (solkattu)
  Jegana jegana jam jam and its
  pop/light classical interpretation by
  a choir is an amazing use of vocals.
  Against which KJY improvises carnatic
  alapana. They go together so well,
  as if all these styles
  were invented years ago
  only for this fusion!
  
  Ooh lalala is a good fusion too,
  european carnival
  music, country banjo, and harmonica,
  tamil folk tunes, tamil melam,
  pop vocal harmonies, very well integrated.
  
  Rahman's two songs stand out as attempts at
  WCM - Veerapandi and Straw berry kannae.
  His string section interlude in Enna seiya
  pogirai is awe-inspiring. It is very much
  in effect like a Beethoven symphony summarised.
  Starts with a discordant feel but not grave,
  and there is so much drama and a climax and
  another climax and a resolution. Very well
  composed. Just a few ideas well built.
  
  
• From: sabesan (@ ws-209-233-228-208.webvangroup.com) on: Thu Apr 27 17:08:58 EDT 2000
  
  rjay.... i thought it was Jayachandran in the song 'kavidhai kellungal'....
  
  
• From: Sridhar Seetharaman (@ 207.newark-33-34rs.nj.dial-access.att.net) on: Thu Apr 27 17:28:52 EDT 2000
  
  Regards "Oo la la laa ", add to it the flamenco style strumming of the guitar in the pallavi. Seamless integration indeed.
  
  
  
  
  
• From: MS (@ 129.252.22.9) on: Thu Apr 27 17:38:40 EDT 2000
  
  yes..It is JC
  
  
• From: kiru (@ surf0004.sybase.com) on: Thu Apr 27 17:50:06 EDT 2000
  
  RJAY,
  Re: fusion. I have heard one RaviShankar and Phillip Glass album. But I did not like the music at all that much. Whenever I expected the melody to go the 'Indian' way it moved in WCM way. But I really enjoy when rAjA plays a western and indian melody contrapuntally. I think he uses this technique quite often. So I think fusion needs to be accepted by the audience as well. It cannot be just an academic exercise appealing only to the technical savvy people, IMHO. I consider rAjA to have done this successfully. I may be wrong.
  
  
• From: srikanth (@ 63.226.195.122) on: Thu Apr 27 23:03:12 EDT 2000
  
  chorus ;
  Old songs did not have much chorus, if at all the lead singer will hum, Melody was given upmost importance, there are some great chorus scoring by msv in rajavin parvai etc. Mgr songs had lot of chorus based songs, also chorus was based on the songs shoot, like if it is grand song with more dance artists etc, director will requets for chorus,
  later whem raja came into the arena, he also composed chorus based on the song situation and diretors taught, he did a great job.
  chorus singers were usually grade 2 singers, meaning they cannot sing lead, they just repeated the pallavi or did some llala type of singing.
  infact i would say many of the male chorus voice during 80's was not upto the mark,
  ofcourse, we cannot forget chorus in podvaga enmasasu, kata vande kata vandee like songs
  raja exploited it as much as he could...
  raja also has used s.j. to sing some chorus for him,
  
  when arr stepped in , chorus took a new shape, chorus became backing vocals, backing vocals were used to sing the harmony for melody, chorus was not just la la la , he also borowed words from other languages, like in adhisayam he uses french words,
  arr also introduced different types of vocals, adopted african, spanish types of vocals, he uses some crazy japanese sounding like singing in the tada song from indian.
  
  if you hear kannum kannum....
  the bgm contains a pa pa pa sound, this was done vocally, the singer who did this mentioned that arr asked him to get his voice very near to a trumpet...
  
  He also got into some good jathis like vocals in Thee thee...he mixed jathies....like he used a slap bass which is wonderful way to play jathis..
  
  also the quality of singers who does backing vocals improved very much, they were trained to do backing vocals, also these singers were well capable of singing the lead..
  
  Arr songs have a great harmonies for the main melody, which i have discussed here plenty of times.
  
  I have pretty interesting piece of a sound effect in my roland eft processor, this gives you a 2 part harmony, if you sing the melody it produces harmony parts automatically,
  but this cannot be used in a recording , best for live shows when you are short of singer to do backing vocals.
  
  Chorus in tamil songs now match the western std.
  
  (also people like deva were kind enough to get the actual western vocals itself from samples;))
  
  
• From: eden (@ 202.54.71.143) on: Thu Apr 27 23:43:05 EDT 2000
  
  IR's use of trumpet is often interesting..This being a `band' instrument (`march past' kind of apps), generally used in TFM and elsewhere for `gambeeram' (adho andhappaRavai pOla and similar songs by MSV, oruvan oruvan by ARR are examples)..
  
  But just listen to the prelude of `sAlaiyOram sOlai ondRu' where this instrument is playing a softie...IR tries to be different!
  
  

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