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Hariharan's pronouncing

Topic started by Giridarapuram Suresh (@ begis50.swift.com) on Tue Jun 23 16:22:28 EDT 1998.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

There has been many criticism on Hari's singing of Tamil songs, but I don't think he is singing that bad in terms of his 'Ucharippu' , Though there may be some words goes like that even for KJ it used happen like that, I feel Hari is singing excellant particullarly 'Ennai Thaalatta ..' and 'Vanna Nilave' and recent 'Vaanathu Thaaragaiyo'. I don't know why the criticism is ? May be just because he was introduced by ARR ?? BTW I am an ardent fan of IR .

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: pg (@ gate02.merck-medco.com) on: Thu Jun 25 07:44:02 EDT 1998
  
  >> By the way, I never compared Hari with SPB, there is another thread for that. SPB is not 'Mr Perfect Pronounciation' as you guys infer....did you see the example I gave? I notice you've all by-passed it....
  
  Obviously, you haven't read my posting ...
  
  
• From: majuran (@ 130.228.146.26) on: Thu Jun 25 07:46:41 EDT 1998
  
  hi hariharan mama
  nikal palandu kalam valla valthukiren innum nikal kana padu padda venum.
  ipadiku
  MAJURAN:RAJAN.
  
  
• From: Geetha (@ gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk) on: Thu Jun 25 10:35:30 EDT 1998
  
  pg: I'm sorry, I beg to differ, I've heard the word pronounced by Tamilians and it's Ilancholai....I never hear the J in it. Also, maybe you are a fan of IR's awful singing, but as a Carnatic singer, I'll never accept the fact that IR can do a better job singing a song than even Gangai Amaran, let alone Hari. IR is incapable of keeping in shruthi - you agree that Bhavatharini has the problem but won't accept 'Your God' as being seemingly untrained and much worse.
  
  
• From: pg (@ gate02.merck-medco.com) on: Thu Jun 25 10:49:53 EDT 1998
  
  I don't know why you have to bring IR & 'Your God' into this.
  
  Anyway since you brought it up, IR may not be your God, may not sing in sruthi, may be the worst singer in TFM but HE IS MILES AHEAD OF Hariharan in pronouncing Tamil.
  
  Also IMHO, on the average (omitting Udit Narayan, AB, LM etc) TFM singers have much better pronunciation than carnatic singers.
  
  The word iLanchOlai is never written as as you mentioned.
  
  Can anybody help me out with transliterating this word ? How do you write idaiyinam 'gya' ?
  
  
• From: Srinath (@ socks15d.raleigh.ibm.com) on: Thu Jun 25 11:26:45 EDT 1998
  
  A small digression - if IR is not able to maintain sruthi, I am quite sure it is not because of lack of knowledge, but purely because of a limitation of his vocal chords. IR's pronunciation in Sanskrit too appears to be impeccable (I am not claiming that he knows Sanskrit) in the shloka in Janani. Gangai Amaran is a far inferior singer than IR. As for keeping in sruthi, I think one good example of IR proving himself is "Kadhal Oviyam, Paadum Kaaviyam", where where the tune changes abruptly at the end of the saranam. It is quite easy to lose sruthi at that point as I have had the unfortunate opportunity to discover :-). Please, IR's range is limited - I accept. But by no standards is he a poor singer.
  
  
• From: gOpAl (@ 1cust112.tnt1.sarasota.fl.gt.uu.net) on: Thu Jun 25 11:43:18 EDT 1998
  
  Geetha
  
  Summarize?
  
  Hari is yet another singer with big time on his side. Nothing else. There are hundreds of stage singers in Madras of whom I know a few, that are capable of singing better than Hari. Better than some lead singers in tfm.....
  
  "Our God's" singing never comes into this thread. Yet, for arg., Shruthi problem, limitations etc., all accepted....Yet, that 'kural', that 'vAkspashtam' that stress, there is nobody in tfm to match the inimitable Maestro!! Your 'God' should take lessons as regards thamizh, pronunciation, proper stress, etc., etc., from nAdhabbrammam, our God:)) Thamizh first, (tfm) singing next!!
  
  
• From: Bharat (@ isdbsd1-inet.ci.mil.wi.us) on: Thu Jun 25 12:05:46 EDT 1998
  
  Srinath:
  
  Another impeccable Sanskrit rendition byIR. The "Abhigyaanaaam... " beginning of Nadhiyil Aadum Poovanam. Exquisite, esp. with the way SJ's voice slowly blends into his recital.
  
  Geetha:
  AFAIK, Ilam+Cholai=Ilanjolai. As per the Tamil alphabet, it's the letter "nya" (after ka, na, cha) added to "cho" which could result in the "j" sound while pronouncing Ilanjolai. pg, am I right about this?
  
  
  
• From: Rajesh (@ pdxss902.jf.intel.com) on: Thu Jun 25 12:32:47 EDT 1998
  
  Bharat,
  
  Ilanjolai is correct. I dont think when Ilam and cholai are combined you can still pronounce it as
  Ilam+cholai. Anyway, with few instances of mispronounciation mistakes in 10000 odd tamil songs SPB had sung, if someone calls him
  singer with pathetic pronounciation it is pathetic.
  
  
• From: Geetha (@ gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk) on: Thu Jun 25 12:37:40 EDT 1998
  
  pg, Bharat: I still don't see this, as Malaysia Vasudeavn sings the same song and he pronounces it IlanCholai.....not jolai.....why is this? I never said I saw it written....Also, this is not the only incident, but I can't think of any others off hand, it's been a while since I heard a SPB song.
  
  Gopal: Sorry, but the first lessons from "nAdhabbrammam, our God" should be to sing in SHRUTHI first, that is the basis of Geedham. Not Tamil (it is important, but not essential - you can't control the accent one speaks with, I'm from Sri Lanka and my pronounciation will be different from yours, it doesn't make my singing bad or unlistenable....). Music is Universal, and as said before, yes, Hari has his Palagat accent, accept it or stop listening. I agree that there are many many very talented Indians, but Hari has a voice that stands out. Maybe others haven't got the break, but he's at the TOP and there's nothing you can do about it!?!?! He's won awards for Hindi songs(The Maachis song), Ghazals, e.t.c....too.
  
  
• From: Srinath (@ socks13d.raleigh.ibm.com) on: Thu Jun 25 12:38:32 EDT 1998
  
  I have noticed something peculiar. Whenever SPB sings for Rajnikanth, his pronunciation appears to be very similar to Rajnikanth's pronunciation. Has anybody else noticed this ? Is he doing it deliberately ?
  
  
• From: Srinath (@ socks13d.raleigh.ibm.com) on: Thu Jun 25 12:40:52 EDT 1998
  
  Could it be that Malaysia Vasudevan is from Malaysia and hence his pronunciation is flawed ? Just kidding there :-)
  
  
• From: Srinath (@ socks13d.raleigh.ibm.com) on: Thu Jun 25 12:44:33 EDT 1998
  
  Geetha:
  Accent is disticntly different from pronuciation. I am a Tamilian who cn speak with Hindi with a noticeable Tamil accent, but my pronunciation is almost always correct. IMHO, HH has profited from modern day recording quality. This is not to say that he lacks talent. But I doubt he would have matched SPB in the early and mid-eighties.
  
  
• From: pg (@ gate02.merck-medco.com) on: Thu Jun 25 12:49:47 EDT 1998
  
  I don't know about MV's iLanchOlai version, I have heard only SPB's version. But MV also has excellent pronounciation, so I will try to get MV's version for comparison.
  
  
• From: Srinath (@ socks13d.raleigh.ibm.com) on: Thu Jun 25 12:54:19 EDT 1998
  
  Bharat:
  Kindly excuse me...:-)
  
  Geetha:
  Pronunciation
  "The act of uttering with
  articulation; the act of giving the proper sound and accent;"
  From Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913) (web1913)
  
  Even if the accent is different, the sound has to be correct. In any case, Hariharan's accent by itself appears to disqualify his pronunciation :-)
  SPB is from Andhra. However, that doesn't appear to have prevented him from pronouncing Tamil words correctly.
  
  
• From: Bharat (@ isdbsd1-inet.ci.mil.wi.us) on: Thu Jun 25 15:52:05 EDT 1998
  
  Hariharan's new interview for The Hindu can be found at:
  
  http://webpage.com/hindu/daily/980626/09/09260704.htm
  
  
• From: Giridarapuram Suresh (@ begis50.swift.com) on: Thu Jun 25 17:51:47 EDT 1998
  
  After Closely listening to 'Vaanathu Thaaragaiyo..' by IR and HARI, as many people felt HARI has not done good job,Also many have felt he is not bringing up the feel of the song but I don't think so atleast in two places in the song one 'Kanavil dhinamum vandhu Kann adippall' towards the end of the song and 'Swaram ezhil adangaatha Raagam ' Hari has done an excellant job, guys Please listen to it again...
  
  
• From: gOpAl (@ 1cust163.tnt1.sarasota.fl.gt.uu.net) on: Fri Jun 26 00:12:41 EDT 1998
  
  Geetha
  
  rAjAvOda pAttellAmE sruthi sudhdham illai yendru
  solramAdhiri theriyudhE?! I am not delving into this area as it is "de trop" and superfluous here.
  
  Hari may have bagged 'n' awards, yet, just not OK!! I dont say his voice is unacceptable. He is a very very very abstemious singer in tfm. I mean in tfm. We have seen great singers. I dont even wish to bring my God into picture like you did. Hari cant even cross the prelims...I shall end my arg. with one analogy.....
  
  If our tfm singers in the past and present can be equated to Gold winning olympic runners (who are definitely not Indians, as you know), then Hari is a poor Indian runner (now, dont bring in A G Milka Singh:). The only consolation is, and for you, Hari is an Indian runner!!!
  
  As regards Hari's pronunciation, accent, style of singing, above all, his voice/tone....Its unfortunate that taste and quality, on either sides, I mean the audience and the movie makers,
  are downbound. Else, how could you explain Udit, Hari, etc., killing thamizh? I also feel, down south, singers born in neighboring states e la SPB, SJ, PSuseela, KJY etc., have been able to do justice when it came to tfm singing (savants need not agree with me), these hindi singers have failed miserably. Now, Hari may be from south, yet, he IS a ghazal singer, and if he has bagged accolades in that domain, so be it, and I have no locus standi to question him there, as ghazals arent my love. Now, my mother tongue is not thamizh FYKI and yet, my thamizh is much much better than some people from thamizh nAdu. Thats because of my passion for thamizh. So, I expect a singer to be good in thamizh (in tfm). Just that will do. This, I dont expect you or someone to accept, as Hari's thamizh might be just enough for you. I sincerely feel his hindi/ghazal/cognition might be the reason for his poor or may be average grade thamizh rendition. And, this might be a process he may or may not be aware of either.....
  But, who cares? Make vaikkOl when the veyyil shines:)))
  
  G Suesh
  
  You mean to say that, Hari has done a good job in those two lines?:) I have been enjoying this song, no doubt, yet, there is a longing that these songs could have been done by the great SPB. Can you help that?
  
  
• From: gOpAl (@ 1cust163.tnt1.sarasota.fl.gt.uu.net) on: Fri Jun 26 00:19:52 EDT 1998
  
  This para below is a cut and paste from the interview appearing in the Hindu:
  
  "I studied Urdu for more than three years to improve my diction. The romantic lyrics had to be pronounced properly and diction is very important. Urdu is a complex language and one had to work hard to master the nuances."
  
  Thats what he lacks in thamizh. Diction!!
  
  

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