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Raga of song please

Topic started by Gopal Prasad (@ greed.cs.umass.edu) on Sat May 17 07:42:45 EDT 1997.
All times in EDT +9:30 for IST.

The popular notation used on this page. The twelve notes of an octave are the following.

1   2   3   4   5   6   7  8   9  10  11  12
S  R1  R2  R3  G3  M1  M2  P  D1  D2  D3  N3
       G1  G2                     N1  N2

"Raga based film songs" Database | Old Database | Indian Classical Music Forum | Hindi Raaga of Songs Thread

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: Vasu (@ 192.35.232.116) on: Fri Apr 19 12:27:50 EDT 2002
  
  IR:
  there is a reason why they are called srutis and not svarasthanam. srutis, svaras, swarasthanams etc - all are seemingly multi-used words, and a original explanation of them is given by sangitaratnakara (SR) which i would include in my post/article. the reason im not putting it now here is, i myself am trying to understand all these things in a coherent manner and since its a bit early for me to be at the "explanation end", i dont want to confuse you more :-). Hope to get it done over the weekend.
  
  I think we should also open a thread in forumhub in order not to put off the subject of this thread.
  
  
• From: IR (@ 38.220.167.235) on: Fri Apr 19 12:49:28 EDT 2002
  
  ya great idea vasu - folks like ramprasad and others would have a lot of information and history to share :)
  
  
• From: Sindhuja (@ 203.197.176.33) on: Fri Apr 19 13:14:56 EDT 2002
  
  Inda mara mandai-kku ippo konjam-konjama puriyaradhu.I guess I'll have to read all that over and over again!Anyways,thanx guys!
  
  
• From: Sindhuja (@ 203.197.176.33) on: Fri Apr 19 13:16:47 EDT 2002
  
  Yeah,and pl. notify when someone's starting a new thread on this ,coz I'm not a regular visitor of forumhub.
  Thanx.
  
  
• From: aruLaracan (@ 128.111.113.76) on: Fri Apr 19 13:26:15 EDT 2002
  
  sindhujA, IR, vAsu. thanks a lot. i will, like a pasu, slowly asai pOTTufy the materials you have provided and hope to understand some. thanks once again.
  
  
• From: Sindhuja (@ 203.197.176.33) on: Fri Apr 19 13:31:12 EDT 2002
  
  And what's the speciality about Ma(other than Pa)that it is also sometimes taken to define a pitch along with Sa?(If I'm not mistaken,is this the Madhyama sruti or the cycle of fourths?)Why not the other viruthi swaras?
  Thalai vedichudum-pola irukku!
  
  
• From: IR (@ ) on: Fri Apr 19 14:40:30 EDT 2002
  
  Vasu - there is already a thread in Forumhub. It is not very active these days - the regular contributors are missing :-(
  
  http://forumhub.com/indcmusic/5363.06.56.04.html
  
  
  
• From: IR (@ 38.220.167.235) on: Fri Apr 19 14:42:35 EDT 2002
  
  AruLaracan - dont worry - you may be able to (at some point) understand the theory part of it - but you would never feel confident/comfortable enough to explain to other people. It is way too complex and confusing. And this concept in widely discussed and discarded too!!!! Just know that there are 22 sruthis and how they are computed :-)
  
  
• From: Ram (@ 134.121.73.57) on: Fri Apr 19 15:35:06 EDT 2002
  
  IR,
  Konja enga range kku irangi vanthu follwing sonsa confirm pannunga:-)....
  "Vechaalum Vekkama"...sounds like chakaravaaham(sounds like Vanithamani in Vikram)...Aasai Nooru vagai is also sounds like Chakravaham,MMG etc.....
  pls confirm
  
  
• From: Ram (@ 134.121.73.57) on: Fri Apr 19 15:52:51 EDT 2002
  
  The above songs are in film Michael Madan Kamarajan and Adutha vaarisu resp.
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 208.61.227.242) on: Fri Apr 19 16:00:11 EDT 2002
  
  Ram "vechchaalum vekkaama" sounds completely different from "aasai nooru vagai" to me..which part in vechaalum vekkaama sounds like Chakravaagam?
  
  "kai veesum thaamarai", charanam of "chinnapoo chinnapoo kannelaam vannapoo" (japaanil kalyaanaraman) all have scales close to "vechaalum"
  
  
• From: IR (@ 38.220.167.235) on: Fri Apr 19 16:01:00 EDT 2002
  
  Ram - peru vechaalum - sounds like ShankarabharaNam based ... (most part) :-)
  
  
• From: Ram (@ 134.121.73.124) on: Fri Apr 19 17:49:05 EDT 2002
  
  Vijay,IR,
  Thnx for the news....ennudaya ularalai porutharulavum....Chinnapoo Chinnapoo sounds like Keeravani(marubadiyum paethala?)....I haven't had a decent sleep for the past four days....that mite be the reason for my wierd postintgs:-)
  
  
• From: Sindhuja (@ 203.197.181.213) on: Fri Apr 19 21:33:03 EDT 2002
  
  IR,what abt. my query?:-(
  Romba silly-nnu venumte kandukallaiyaa..illa....
  
  
• From: IR_Fan (@ 202.88.152.159) on: Sat Apr 20 02:16:09 EDT 2002
  
  Sidhuja, kavala padaatheenga..naan irukken kadalai podarudhukku ;-) [Ram, adikka varadheenga :-)))]
  
  
• From: IR_Fan (@ 202.88.152.159) on: Sat Apr 20 06:04:58 EDT 2002
  
  'Kannukulla keluthi' from 'Dil'...Karaharapriya?
  
  
• From: Sindhuja (@ 203.197.182.101) on: Sat Apr 20 06:56:03 EDT 2002
  
  Excuse me if this is going to be extremely dumb and ridiculous,but enakku inda "kadalai" business purillai.
  All i know is that kadal:sea/ocean,kadalai:ground-nut.So,thakkali,egg-ellaam kooda kadalai?????
  Care to explain (to this tubelight)?
  BTW,Vasu,IR and others,what abt. shifting that discussion(on shrutis) to that other thread?
  
  
• From: MS (@ 129.252.25.241) on: Sat Apr 20 14:41:02 EDT 2002
  
  (1) Vechchaalum vekkama pOnaalum malli vaasam
  adhu kutraala sugavaasam - shankarabaraNam
  
  (2) aasai nooru vagai - Sindhu bhairavi
  
  (3) chinnappo - I dont know the charaNam. But the start is in the minor scale and cannot be compared at all with "kaiveesum" and "vechchaalum" which come from a major scale.
  
  (4) "Sometimes Ma defines the pitch" :
  
  Yes. it is kind of true atleast for a person getting lost in some grahabedhams like sudhdha-dhanyaasi and hindhOLam.
  
  One way to explain is through the chord pattern.
  Generally the songs we listen to fit in either the minor scale (sa ga2 pa - the minor chord) or the major scale (sa ga3 pa - the major chord). the "sa ga pa" chord is the "scale" chord for that song.
  
  For eg, the song "iLamaiyenum poonkaatru" is in C scale (oru kattai). Since the lead tune is "sa sa ri2 ga2 ma1 pa ga2...pa" the scale chord is "sa ga2 pa" which is "C D# G" - the Cminor chord.
  
  similarly consider the song.."veettukku veettukku". Assume that it is in C scale (oru kattai). Its swaras are "sa ni3 sa ri2 sa ri2 ga3 ma1 ga3 ri sa ni3 sa". since "ga3" comes the scale chord is "sa ga3 pa" - which is "C E G"- the C major chord.
  
  Now u know two different kinds of songs - the ones that have Ga2 and ones that have Ga3. Almost 95 % of all the western songs go by these chords. When we look at tamil music (especially IR's experimentation), we are pretty much bowled since these two are inadequate.
  
  Why ? It is because, in tamil songs we have some ragas which have neither Ga3 or Ga2. ONe good example is madhyamaavathi. "sa ri2 ma1 pa ni2 sa". A chord has to be formed by a minimum of three keys. I do not have any "sa ga pa" combination. how do I define a scale chord for say "thuLLi thuLLi nee paadamma" or "needhaane en pon vasantham" ?
  
  It is here that "ma" defines a scale. (I am not sure if there is any song in which "ma2" defines a scale but I am sure about ma1). there is another kind of scale chord that comes into picture namely the sustained chords. the combo for this is "sa ma1 pa". So if the madhyamaavathi song is in C scale (oru kattai), we have "C F G" defining the scale chord.
  
  good. Now let us take up hindhOLam / sudhdhadhanyaasi. SD is "sa ga2 m1 pa ni2 sa" - great ! - we have a scale chord "sa g2 pa". So all the sudhadhanyaasi songs are saved :-) what about hindhoLam "sa ga2 ma1 dha1 ni2 sa". We have "sa", "ga" and "ma1" but no "pa" ! So neither the minor/major nor the sustained are going to work ! How do we get a "scale" chord then ?
  
  the trick here is to identify hindhOLam as a "transposed" sudhdha dhanyaasi. In other words identify as grahabedham of sudhadhadhanyaasi. thus "Ma" of hindhoLam becomes "sa" of SD. since SD has the "Sa Ga2 pa" as the scale chord (refer to the paragraph above), hindhoLam is "forced" to have "Ma1 d1 sa" as its scale chord ! Now, that makes use of "Ma1" as the note which along with Sa defines the song.
  
  This explanation may be a little circumlocutory. The reason why I chose to write is that, a hindhOLam song always has this tendency to slip into sudhdha dhanyaasi because of its unusual scale chord. some may claim this may find no relavance in carnatic songs since they don't "use" chords. but the fact is that, unavoidably the harmony picture comes into the mind.
  
  there are ragas like naattai which have both the major and minor chords coming into play..eg "vasantham paadi vara vaigai odi vara.." But they are a little complicated to understand and let me stop thsi discussion here.
  
  (5) kadalai :-)
  
  think of munching a packet of ground nuts. It is customary to eat it one by one slowly. ground nut's is taste no-one can remember since it does not linger very much later. It is pleasurable while it is being eaten but has no "hangover". but people eat it slowly one by one (vaai Oyaamal thinbadhu :-)) with a mechanical regularity. kadalai pOdaradhu is similar to that :-) It is nothing but talking to a girl aimlessly with the outcome never being important but the talking experience itself being pleasurable :-)
  
  
• From: Ram (@ 63.161.26.234) on: Sat Apr 20 17:23:39 EDT 2002
  
  Hai alla,
  ellarukkum May 12th varai viduthalai from my absurd postings and queries.....ellarum nimmadhiya irunga...
  Kaneerudan,
  Ram
  
  
• From: Ram (@ 63.161.26.234) on: Sat Apr 20 17:28:32 EDT 2002
  
  typo that was supposed to be "All" not "Alla"
  
  
• From: IR (@ 4.64.205.10) on: Sat Apr 20 18:33:51 EDT 2002
  
  MS - super kalakkal :-)
  
  Ram - enna aachu - ore kaNNeerum kambaLayum?
  
  
• From: Ram (@ 63.161.26.234) on: Sat Apr 20 22:24:45 EDT 2002
  
  "Poongatre neeyum saatchi solla varuvaaya"...listed as an IR song in thenisai.com couldn't find the name of the film Hariharan is singingIt looks like pure Ahir Bairav(Will be the last post mine for next few weeks...puriyuthu unga ellarukkum romba kashtama irukkumnu....yaarum manasu udainchu Thee Kulikka poidaathanga(Madras karanga kulikkave kashtappaduvanga,may maasam thaNNI kashtamaache:-)....Neraya project deadline nerungiduchu...innum 2 weeks la Finals)....
  Bye for now:-(
  Ram
  
  
• From: vijay (@ 68.51.203.216) on: Sat Apr 20 22:41:22 EDT 2002
  
  "Chinnapoo Chinnapoo sounds like Keeravani(marubadiyum paethala?)."
  
  Ram, I was talking only about the charanam, pallavi illa. Raaja changes the scale in the charanam and then reverts back to the scale of the pallavi in the last couple of lines of the charanam. Pallavi does sound like Keeravani.
  
  

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