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Topic started by bb (@ 24.4.254.104) on Tue Feb 20 03:21:22 EST 2001.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Hi! We've made a major addition to newtfmpage, and that is a big song bank. Dhool features thousands of songs for your listening pleasure. This site is a part of the newtfmpage.com - swara.com group. Together with newtfmpage, we wish to make this the best place to listen to tamil film songs online and know about tamil film music. Our collection includes old, new, famous, rare and unheard of songs. We are still fine tuning and fixing the database errors, so please bear with us. We value your feedback, and this will help us build the site better. Please post your comments below or mail to comments@newtfmpage.com.
This work was done by us (bb and RR) with MS and swara.com ravi.

Responses:

Old responses
From: bb (@ 206.154.118.2) on: Tue Sep 23 15:06:18 EDT 2003

Naaz, Amazing what people will nitpick and find fault with :) I don't see a problem with Chithra's diction in that song (yes, my usage is right, and Diction is commonly used in this meaning).
BTW, sundharavaLLi?? way to go, towards perfect pronounciation.
From: vijay (@ 68.16.25.50) on: Tue Sep 23 15:10:06 EDT 2003

Here is another link that defines "diction"
http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary

Main Entry: dic·tion
Pronunciation: 'dik-sh&n
Function: noun
Etymology: Latin diction-, dictio speaking, style, from dicere to say; akin to Old English tEon to accuse, Latin dicare to proclaim, dedicate, Greek deiknynai to show, dikE judgment, right
Date: 1581
1 obsolete : verbal description
2 : choice of words especially with regard to correctness, clearness, or effectiveness
3 a : vocal expression : ENUNCIATION b : pronunciation and enunciation of words in singing
- dic·tion·al /-shn&l, -sh&-n&l/ adjective
- dic·tion·al·ly /-E/ adverb

"pronunciation or enunciation of words IN SINGING"

Nowhere it says that its just restricted to the author.
MS's reference is not selective.He merely pasted the exact definition. Selective reference is when you quote selective examples to prove your point.
From: MS (@ 129.252.26.46) on: Tue Sep 23 15:12:51 EDT 2003

Naaz..I cannot help but just smile away. Anyway I am pursuing this war of (on ?) words no further. Let this remain SOTD and not WOTD for which one could join the mailing list of dictionary.com or m-w.com :-)
From: Naaz (@ 24.87.30.219) on: Tue Sep 23 15:15:32 EDT 2003

bb-

I was just about make a correction in my typo (yes, all chinna La nevertheless) but my finger was still on "shift" L. Thanks for correcting that on my behalf, before I could. Appreciate it.

-----
Yeah, is just as amazing what people will lie about and call "superb." (what's the criteria??) :-)

(You can use diction any way you want, bb. Kaasa Panama? :-)
From: bb (@ 206.154.118.2) on: Tue Sep 23 15:31:07 EDT 2003

yeah, whatever, dude :)
From: Naaz (@ 24.87.30.219) on: Tue Sep 23 15:43:12 EDT 2003

Vijay -

I am not familiar with dictionary.com, nor do I consider it to be any sort of authority (your link did not work, sorry.) Wgat is m-w.com?? (meaning of words dot com??)
The Scribner-Bantam english dictionary (which is not exactly the definitive source for comprehensiveness) defines "Diction" as such: "Diction is a term that is applied to that choice and use of words by which an AUTHOR (emphasis mine) expresses his meaning" (gender specificity theirs).

Why - look at the very etymology of the word - which you have provided: "proclaim, dedicate" both source (implicitly) the "author" (as in "J'accuse!")

MS -

One may smile and smile and...and I'm sure it looks good on you.

Senty -

Just noticed your post. Thanks for your encore listening and the still lingering "dh"oubts!:-)
From: vijay (@ 68.16.25.50) on: Tue Sep 23 15:52:06 EDT 2003

Naaz, m-w is Merriam Webster. The link is
http://www.m-w.com

If you have doubts that I "selectively" quoted anything you can type diction and check it out yourself :-))
From: RangA (@ 192.127.94.7) on: Tue Sep 23 16:17:02 EDT 2003

Naazji, Now that you have defined the meaning of the word 'diction' so brilliantly, now I have a doubt as to what in your opinion is the correct diction of an author (say, like you) who could write a word 'vaazappazam' and pronounce it as 'vaaLappaLam'?
From: RangA (@ 192.127.94.7) on: Tue Sep 23 16:19:36 EDT 2003

And kudos to you for getting into vaali and finding out how he would have preferred to have his songs pronounced. Great service to honesty!!!
From: RangA (@ 192.127.94.7) on: Tue Sep 23 16:20:58 EDT 2003

...also you can tell us how he wanted 'laalaakka dOl dappi maa' pronounced. Was that the correct diction vaali intended, sir?
From: Naaz (@ 24.87.30.219) on: Tue Sep 23 16:21:10 EDT 2003

Vijay -
Let's try this one last time (without any links or sources.):

Diction is a "literary" term. It means "To Speak" (from whence we get "dictum") with a clear/precise/accurate choice of words. That's why it is authorial and oratorial - (author's do sing their own ditties, as in a Mushaaira or Kaviarangam, and when they do, you can say that their "diction" was precise and expressive of what they were trying to communicate. Still, essentially, it pertains to "speech" and never to "singing")
A singer does not "speak"; s/he "vocalises". And what's more, they are somebody else's words. Would you give Chitra the credit for Vaali's words/diction? Say she "expresses sincerely emotions of the poet's diction/words" and we may still meet halfway. But that's not what was said.

Hence:
To say that "so and so's diction is superb" is to attribute a literary component to a musician who has neither written the verse/song, nor is it correct usage. Let's turn it around: "Vaali's mezzo is superb!" See how the usage doesn't really work?

bb -

Here's right back at ya, dude!
From: av (@ 132.206.72.95) on: Tue Sep 23 16:22:03 EDT 2003

http://dictionary.cambridge.org/

Definition
diction [Show phonetics]
noun [U]
the manner in which words are pronounced:
[It is very helpful for a language teacher to have good diction.]

(from Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary)
Cambridge University Press 2003
From: sarakku master (@ 207.24.185.12) on: Tue Sep 23 16:22:44 EDT 2003

masaal dhOsai nallaa thaan keedhu.. aanaa uruLai kezangu En uruNdai'yaa illai'naa apram, adhukku innaaththukkubaa uruLai'nu pEru'ngraRaaru vaathyaaru? mmmmn.. :>
From: helppa (@ 203.113.34.239) on: Tue Sep 23 16:27:47 EDT 2003

btw: is the song
"palukuuuuuuuule then" correct diction
for me it sounds like "decogtion"
Sarakumaster can you help me.
From: RangA (@ 192.127.94.7) on: Tue Sep 23 16:39:16 EDT 2003

kaNNu naazzu, vaalee's diction in that song is superb nnu sonnaa englishkaaran keezppakkaaththaala sirippaan kaNNu. summaa innaamO theriyaama sollipputta adhukku innaaththukubaa immaam rousu? udu nainaa!!
From: RangA (@ 192.127.94.7) on: Tue Sep 23 16:41:07 EDT 2003

sarthaampaa!! allaarum peria mansu paNNi mannchi uttrungabaa. inimElttu naazu inga pilim kaatta maattaaru.
From: RangA (@ 192.127.94.7) on: Tue Sep 23 16:43:50 EDT 2003

naaz's quote about honesty and hypocrisy...ROTFL :-)))
From: RangA (@ 192.127.94.7) on: Tue Sep 23 16:46:15 EDT 2003

Amazing what people will accept and celebrate. But we're all so adept at traversing this thin line between hypocrisy and honesty, we can pat ourselves on the back to raising it to a lever of a fine art. soltaarbaa honestRaj!!
From: RangA (@ 192.127.94.7) on: Tue Sep 23 16:49:21 EDT 2003

I think naaz's 'diction' intends 'level of a fine art' but his 'addiction' to typo made it a 'lever of a fine art'. First I read it as 'liver of a fine art' and thought this must be some new funda like diction funda.
From: SP (@ 65.69.81.2) on: Tue Sep 23 16:50:05 EDT 2003

ay! English padikka daily inga vanthaa pOdhum pOla irukke! :)
From: vijay (@ 68.16.25.50) on: Tue Sep 23 16:51:40 EDT 2003

Naaz, let me also try this for the last time again.. according to the Merriam Wesbter dictionary "diction " is

vocal expression : ENUNCIATION b : pronunciation and enunciation of words in singing

And so your comment

"Still, essentially, it pertains to "speech" and never to "singing"

is WRONG

And I have read numerous reviews on Carnatic music in Hindu and other magazines where the word diction has been used in the context of singing and we all know that the singer rarely sings his or her own lyrics.

Here is one:
http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/2001/10/25/stories/09250707.htm

"Sudha's diction of the pieces, "Ambaniyirangayenil" (Atana) and "Mamavathusri" (Hindolam) reflected her grasp of their entrancing classical contents.
"

So, of course its used in the context of diction unless otherwise you think everyone else except you is wrong :-)
From: vijay (@ 68.16.25.50) on: Tue Sep 23 16:52:51 EDT 2003

read the last line as "So, of course its used in the context of singing..."
From: Raj (@ 206.97.63.112) on: Tue Sep 23 16:53:01 EDT 2003

Why don't we call it the Sandai Of The Day? Sandai(fight) can also be fun!
From: Prabhu (@ 156.153.255.134) on: Tue Sep 23 17:03:27 EDT 2003

In Medhuva Medhuva(1st St, Anna Ngr) Chitra sings "kangal moodalle". Dunno if its her fault or the lyricist meant it that way. But it doesnt affect my opinion of her capability any bit.
From: RangA (@ 192.127.94.7) on: Tue Sep 23 17:12:23 EDT 2003

vijay, good examples and clear logic. You nailed it!! But I am sure our honestRaj's ego is not going to accept it. Let us see whether he is an honest or a hypocrite.
From: after a looooooong time (^!^) (@ 207.43.195.203) on: Tue Sep 23 17:22:35 EDT 2003

ai.....ivLo naa Richardson a thaan chellamaa Dic*son nu kooppidaraanga nu ninaichchaa, idhukku pinnaala immaam pereeya sariththiramE keedhaa?

class mudinjaappuram yaaraavadhu Udit Narayan endha rank la pass paNNinaar nu sonnaa sowgaryamaa irukkum!
From: Naaz (@ 24.87.30.219) on: Tue Sep 23 17:23:30 EDT 2003

Vijay -

I have some dear friends who are from TN, and tamizh speakers, who constantly use words like "irregardless" when they mean "regardless", or phrases such as "That I can able to do" (Adhai Ennal Seiya Mudiyum, literally) or "That costed us so much," or "They are shifting to another house."
Tamizh/Southern/Northern journalists in India (or anywhere else, if you can give examples) are also prone to following "assumptions" without making the effort confirm or ascertain "foreign" literary usage (this may also be a result of the fact that an "indian" is essentially bilingual, if not trilingual.) Should that be excused? Ignored?
Are they right? Should I tell them? Why bother?
Should I be surprised that this leaks into print? Does that in itself make it right?

It is not about me being wrong or you being right (to reduce our discussion thus far to such a binary does not speak of intellectual maturity.)
Neither is this a "sandai". (Vengayam, did you say, "side-show" :-))

Here's the subtext to all this: you (not you specifically) want to prop up mediocrity and faulty tamizh singing as "superb 'diction' as usual" - go right ahead. I'll just accept that to be your right.

What's more amplified (to me) than "chitra's diction" is the silence of other posters (informed and astute ones) with regards to the song. When people move on to Gowri Manohari and Dharmavathi or violin interludes and chorus, and don't say a word about voice and pronunciation or singing capability, you don't have to be a brainiac to see what's left un-addressed. And deliberately so.

Some might see that hollow as wisdom, and I occasionally do. But silence is also a form of abdication. And more than somewhat cowardly.

RangA-

What happened to Venki?
From: rajaG (@ 207.43.195.203) on: Tue Sep 23 17:27:43 EDT 2003

Naaz-

The "knowledgeable" posters did not talk about sruthi, thaaLam, layam, etc.? Are we to assume that, in your esteemed opinion, they were silent - hence there was a problem?

The dogs did not bark! - Sherlock Holmes kadhai maadhiri irukkE.

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