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CLAIMING ILAYARAJA - AS THE ALL TIME BEST MUSICIAN

Topic started by SATHIYAVAGEESWARAN (@ client-151-200-126-20.bellatlantic.net) on Sat Jan 3 00:26:02 EST 1998.
All times in EDT/EST +9:30/10:30 for IST.

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: Nithin (@ nc.pr.mcs.net) on: Wed May 6 19:46:20 EDT 1998
  
  Udhaya
  
  Your observations about IR's interludes is a moot point if you compared IR's interludes with some of the famous catchy western themes such as 'Temptation' (Paalinganal Oru Maligai), For a Few Dollars More, Pink Panther Theme, Batman Theme Music or even the theme music for the television series Dharma & Greg (which by the way has a remarkable resemblance to the opening lead for the song Vizhiyil Un Vizhiyil Oru Poo Poothathu in the Kamal movie Ram Lakshman).
  
  If you see my point, this is precisely what IR is not trying to achieve. I think if he expanded on several of his interludes, you will definitely see a singular and continuous, more effectively, a non-disruptive section of music in a song. If that happened, the scenes for which the songs are composed cannot present the evolving charecteristics and feelings that need to be projected during that scene.
  
  Again, if IRspend time dilating his interludes to make it one long-winded theme, it can end up as a potential song by itself, which would be too much sugar in one song, that is three or four themes good enough to be songs by themselves in one song!
  
  If you catch the drift, this can diminish the potential ( a 'potentially' popular word I hear these days) for drama that is packed in one song. As an example, take the song: Mudhal Mudhalaka Kadhal Duet Paada Vandhene (Niram Maradha Pookal). Listen to the interludes.
  
  This is a classic example of your rightful complaint about disruptive music. Each of the three instrumental pieces have more than two distinct genres blended seamlessly like nobody's business in one swift flow! Now think a minute here. What levels of creative energy and imagination is required to compose a piece like that? How much difficult is to convert it into a simple straightforward western type theme?
  
  I think, it is just a matter of twisting and slowing down the notes a little in the beginning of the interludes, straighten out a little bit of the waves between the high and the low notes, ignore the various instruments with a distinct personality, move in the violins and the strings or substitute with a flute, be it Celtic, French Horn or Oboe or Clarinet or our own NadaswaraN and provide a coda after the work done on the l;engthening of the Pallavi. What do you get, perhaps something in the making of a 'For a Few Dollars Got More' (got more Rupees)
  
  If IR wanted to do this, he probably would have not been composing music for us in India, he may have composed for a few hollywood films and been so overwhelmed by the popularity and the royalities he could have earned with a few of such compositions, that we would not have seen the IR capable of producing the greatest music magic ever performed on this earth.
  
  The interlude capability of IR alone has given him the admirable quality fan following by the millions. I continue to bet on this, his style of composing can never be emulated, leave alone be disrupted by any wild breeze. By the way, IR's disruptive interludes for say some 4000 songs can easily be given some more attention and converted into perhaps 3000 popular overtures (not 4000 Themes By the Way) if not a 1000 or so symphonies!
  
  Regards ARR and interludes, I think that is taking fantasies a little too far. Agreed he is a genius who has drawn even a snob's attention with remarkably catchy tunes, which is all you need to pound the listener with whatever is left after that! Interludes? Man, every other composer I have listened has produced great interludes, but ARR, I am totally puzzled.
  
  Except for Iruvar songs, I have not come across any interlude of his or even the charanam part that makes sense. I am not saying anything negative, but today's media attention and technology is ARR's prop and sound effects. No one is interested in crackling melodies and poorly recorded songs of yesteryears. And today's musical world is a big desert. ARR is like the Oasis. The others like KR, YSR and others are like mirages. So, we should be thankful by the crores to get what we can get today from ARR! However, it is great to see Chennai becoming the center of all musical and popular cultures, thanks to ARR. Keep it up, Sir
  
  Wait a minute, I see the last sentence of Udhaya. IR is dethroned, if you match song for song. Nor is MSV dethroned. They are still kings. They cannot be dethroned. It is like the Musical Trinitie have been dethroned. These guys are MUSIC.
  
  
  
• From: Udhaya (@ 205.218.142.217) on: Wed May 6 20:47:18 EDT 1998
  
  Nithin, thanks for the education in creating interludes. I don't have classical training to back up my taste so I'll accept what you say. Is interlude a specific musical term as in saranam? if it is then I should have just stuck with using the term, "transition". So, this is what I should have said, I like ARR's transitions, digressions, musical roaming if you will, between stanzas (can I say stanza as in poems or is there another term for it?). "Chinna chinna Aasai", "Anjali", "Margahzi Poove," "Ennai Kaanavillayae" all had great transitional music just to name a few.
  
  By the way, Madhan, I am no stranger to the mirudhangam usage in the songs you mentioned, I love those IR tunes dearly. Maybe my comparison of ARR's and IR's percussion styles was misconstrued. With the exception of American pop star Prince, I haven't found anyone in the Western pop, or Indian pop use drums as variedly, fluidly, and appropriately as ARR. I just long for more competition among MDs so we get more variety. Their, I think I have overused my voice in this topic. Let some others get in.
  
  
• From: Nithin (@ nc.pr.mcs.net) on: Thu May 7 01:11:58 EDT 1998
  
  Udhayam
  
  I am not sure about the using word transition as far as film songs composed until ARR's arrival. Those instrumental portions have never sounded like a digression, unitl I heard ARR's compositions. Truly in his songs, ARR' use of the interlude, which I mean as the instrumental stanza, has always sounded like a rambling, or in your own terms, musical roamings or transitions, where the music does not seem to connect with the main pallavi and the charanam parts or does not really form the building portions of the song. That is ARR's specialty and he is the first composer to do that, if my observation is right.
  
  You take Raja's. MSV's, RDB's, LP or any other composer for that matter, their interlude portions always gave character and continuity to the song, while making some astounding musical statements.
  
  
• From: Sankaran (@ webgate6.mot.com) on: Thu May 7 01:13:54 EDT 1998
  
  I want to pitch in with a bit.ARR has been portrayed here as being inferior in the interludes.I beg to differ.ARR's natural way of working can be likened to that of a goldsmith,working,reworking and refining his product till he gets the satisfaction.This leads to a feeling of "layered" music which could seem contrived at times.But whenever ARR is natural,his music has been really flowing and stirring.I want specifically name two songs,"kannukku mayyazhagu-second interlude" and "aathangarai maramey - both interludes".In these two his music has been exceptional and seemingly natural.
  
  
• From: Bharat (@ dsi.mids.com) on: Thu May 7 14:17:12 EDT 1998
  
  I felt that ARR's interludes for "aathangarai maramae" were a little weird. Taken individaully, they seemed melodious, but in the context of being bracketed by the rustic flavor of the song (the basic tune and the words) they seemed out of place. Too westernized is how I'd term it.
  Another problem I have with some of ARR's interludes is that they give me the feeling of "floating in the air" (the interludes, that is, not me). Sometimes, I wish he's "bring them down to earth" using some percussion. I feel this with regard to the second interlude of the same song with the flute.
  I feel his interludes with the more "pacy" songs are better than the ones with slower tunes. Please note that there is no comparison being done here. Just a persoanl observation of ARR's interludes (or is it "transitions"?).
  
  
• From: Bharat (@ dsi.mids.com) on: Thu May 7 14:18:38 EDT 1998
  
  Correction: Sometimes, I wish he's "bring them down to earth" ... should have read
  Sometimes, I wish he'd "bring them down to earth"
  
  
• From: badri raghavan (@ 206.103.12.125) on: Thu May 14 07:24:58 EDT 1998
  
  Is one judged as the greatest merely by the instrumentation that he has composed? what about the melody? what about conveying the emotion of the scene through the words and music? what about sending those slight little shivers down the spine of the listeners? what about the trance-like effect that the song creates on the audience? well i can go on and on. the point i am trying to make: music is mostly felt and seldom fully expressed in words. by being able to dissect a BGM into its individual components or by clinically examining the vakra swaras in an otherwise homogenous melody can at best bestow the status of a knowledgeable critic but not an appreciative listener.
  
  this might appear to be a digression but let us face the fact that most of the songs that impressed us made an impact either thro' its melody, the lyrics, the voice of the singer, the emotions rolled into the music and last but not the least the picturisation. none of these can be considered in isolation.
  
  take the song chinna chinna aasai. in the pallavi after the first charanam, there is a brief veenai piece which added a new dimension to the song in terms of emotions. if it were repeated elsewhere, it's impact might not have been as profound as it was.
  
  or take the song oruthi oruvanai ninaithu vittal (from saradha) where there is a sound of a bell after the words "kanden kandhadhu nalla padi adhu kaadalan udane sellumbadi" between the repeat and that brings a new perspective to the entire song these bits and pieces are not accidental but often signs of creativity in the MD to use subtle and covert nuances to add a colour to a song.
  
  given the exhaustive treatment of swaras and their permutations in carnatic music, none can claim anything as fully original. most music is inspirational at best but the ability to blend seemingly different streams to generate harmonious and pleasant music differentiates a great artiste from an also ran. the raga kalyani has been used innumerous times so far but a different treatment like vandal mahalakshmiye or amma endru azhaikada uyirilleye does not diminish the contribution of the music director.
  
  let us discuss the greatness of musicians by the impact they made on us and not whether their music was copied or inspired.
  
  
  
• From: S.Suresh (@ dwarpal.wipsys.soft.net) on: Fri May 15 04:22:44 EDT 1998
  
  Badri,
  
  I think we cannot push the topic of copying under the carpet by saying that copied music has impact on us, so it is great. Please note that I am not referring to any MD here. It applies equally to all MD's. I cannot agree with your argument that since there are a limited swaras, no music is original. If a MD took a Tyagaraja Krithi in Kalyani say Vasudevayani and converted it into Tamil and gave some additional music to it then it is definitely a case of plagarism. The song may be good, it may be a big hit, it may have moved your emotions, but it is a copied song and so the applause should go to the composer who composed it in the first place. The problem here is that we tend to praise a second person for something created by another person. at the same time if the MD comes out with a totally new tune in Kalyani, it should be considered as original since he has given a new color or dimension to Kalyani. We cannot argue that it is not original since Kalyani was around for ages. The great musicians open up your mind to the various dimensions of music.
  
  Let me give you some examples, when I heard "Akila Akila" I was thrilled. I told my friend, "Wow this is good. Deva has really done a great job". I hear a lot of Rock music but havent heard much of reggae. So when I came to know that this song was a replica of Buffalo Soldier it was a big let down for me. Similarly I had thought that Telephone Manipol beat was pretty good. I read that it was copied from somewhere else. So if I credit Rahman for this wonderful beat, am I not doing an injustice to the person who originally devised this? Do you think that the guy who origianlly devised these beats was "original". I think he is more creative person than the MD who copies him. Just that he doesnt happen to be in TFM doesnt mean that we should shower praise on our MDs. There are so many instance that I have praised the music of the new MDs only to find that lot of it is copied note for note or beat for beat. It is at these times that you feel very cheated. I dont want to assuage my feelings saying that though he copied from somewhere else, he has done a great job. I think we are doing a great injustice to the original composer. We must force our MDs to admit the tunes which they have actually picked up from other sources. This will put the current TFM in proper perspective. It will stop people from making such nonsense claims that so and so MD is now an international MD. True originality will be recognised. So will copies.
  
  I dont think Kamban or Bharathi was the end of poetry. Einstein was not the end of physics. So neither is IR the end of all good music. He is one of its best practioners. I welcome as such addition to this fraternity as possible. It will only help us in deriving more pleasure. My only wish is that they will get out of this mode of copying from various sources and dream up something original. Then we can be very proud of TFM as we were when IR was in his heyday. I sincerely wish that the new MDs will follow the path of originality and give us something to be proud of.
  
  
  

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