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Same raga used for different situations

Topic started by swarapriyan/Murali Sankar (@ 129.252.23.231) on Fri Oct 23 23:39:22 EDT 1998.
All times in EST +10:30 for IST.

Hope this shall prove a feast to IR fans. IR has invariably used the same raga for conveying different situations eg:

Raga Mohanam:

(1)Vandhadhey kungumam - love
(2)Nilavu thoongum neram - lullaby
(3)Ninnukori varnam - feet tapper
(4)Idhayam oru kovil - meloncholy
(5)Paruvamey - freshness of the dawn

There may be use of anya swaras. but that must not matter to a great extent. This thread may also discuss the works of other MDs. But the appreciation shall be better if different songs in the same raga of an MD is discussed. this may help us get a good look into the versatility of MD.

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: Ravi (@ envy.cs.umass.edu) on: Tue Nov 3 19:11:53 EST 1998
  
  Sashi & MS: Thanks for the clarification. As I have mentiond time and again in this forum, enakku tech. knowledge romba kammi. ella maththavanga solli kEtkarathu thaan. Sometimes my memory fails me like now. :-).
  
  
• From: cram (@ 206.103.12.102) on: Wed Nov 4 04:54:17 EST 1998
  
  this thread is toooo hot for tech.phobic people like me. but it is quite a revelation that so many of the songs that i (we) enjoyed and continue to cherish are all based on carnatic ragas. IR, MSV take such great pains to mask ragas' characters, aanaal ennai poandra lakhs and lakhs of rasigars are totally clueless.
  ella active participantsukkum enathu sabaash!
  
  
• From: YGeetha (@ gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk) on: Wed Nov 4 07:19:05 EST 1998
  
  Mukund: I beleive that Iniya Malargal from Poonthotam is in Chakravakham. The song Nee Paadhi Naan Paadhi Kanne from Keladi kannmani is also in this Raga, as is ARR's Vidukadhaiyaa from Veera.....
  
  
• From: YGeetha (@ gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk) on: Wed Nov 4 07:20:11 EST 1998
  
  Mukund: I beleive that Iniya Malargal from Poonthotam is in Chakravakham. The song Nee Paadhi Naan Paadhi Kanne from Keladi kannmani is also in this Raga, as is ARR's Vidukadhaiyaa from Muthu.....
  
  
• From: Murali Sankar (@ ncr1.ece.sc.edu) on: Wed Nov 4 11:46:38 EST 1998
  
  May I request the participants to explain the situations too and the way the MDs have used the ragas ? Else, as Ragapriyan felt, this shall become another thread for discussing the ragas of songs.
  
  Regards
  
  Murali Sankar
  
  
• From: Shashi (@ fw1xlate1.mayo.edu) on: Wed Nov 4 13:39:16 EST 1998
  
  Hi Mukund and YGeetha
  
  It is interesting to see your thoughts on 'Iniya Malargal' from Poonthotam.
  
  I think Chakravakham or Ahirbhairav (hindustani counterpart) are very reasonable assessments. However, if you are familiar with the natural singing scale of Raja, you may want to consider Sarasangi as a possibility.
  
  Sarasangi gives rise to Chakravakham if you do 'Grahabedam'; ie change the Pa of Sarasangi to Sa.
  
  This observation illustrates some of my earlier discussions. Chakravakham has certain rules associated with it and so does Sarasangi. In the above song, neither Chakravakham nor Sarasangi's raga bhavam is completely dilineated. Although it is very subjective, I feel that the song has more shades of Sarasangi than Chakravakham.
  
  Comments?
  
  
• From: Shashi (@ fw1xlate1.mayo.edu) on: Wed Nov 4 13:55:09 EST 1998
  
  Hi Mukund and YGeetha
  
  It is interesting that both of you had felt 'Iniya Marlargal' from Poonthotam to be in Chakravakham or Ahir Bhairav(its hindustani counterpart). Both are very reasonable assessments.
  
  You may also consider Sarasangi especially if you are familiar with the natural singing scale of Raja. Why Sarasangi? Because, if you do Grahabeda of Chakravakham you can derive Sarasangi and viceversa. Try changing the Pa of Sarasangi to Sa--Surprise!!--you have the Chakravakham scale.
  
  Now, I agree that in the above song neither Chakravakham's nor Sarasangi's Ragabhavam has been potrayed. In other words, the niceties and other characteristics that make each one of these ragas unique, have not been clearly defined. But in my subjective opinion I feel the song has more of Sarasangi's Bhavam than Chakravakham's and moreover what you are considering as Sa of Chakravakham is probably the lower Pa of Raja's natural scale(and of my Sarasangi).
  
  Comments?
  
  
• From: Shashi (@ fw1xlate1.mayo.edu) on: Wed Nov 4 15:07:45 EST 1998
  
  Hi
  
  Sorry about the two postings. My server did not show the posting even after I reloaded; hence the duplication
  
  
• From: Mukund (@ sdwwwgw01.sd.nmp.nokia.com) on: Wed Nov 4 15:17:55 EST 1998
  
  Hi Shashi,
  
  You know why I did not find any Sarasangi in it ? Because I dont know Sarasangi ;-). Now you have come to an interesting point in the raga classification for TFM songs. After listening to so many songs of IR, where there were thousands of instances where he had lightened the raga so much I felt - a song can be classified under a raga as long as it is not light enough that you start thinking of its graha bedha counterpart.
  
  But of course not all ragas have graha bedha counterparts which leaves out a lot of grey area undefined.
  
  Here we have an interesting situation. This cannot with certainity be classified as Sarasangi or Ahirbhairavi, right ? Therefore, the fact is talking about expanding the scope of Ahirbhairav is out of place. Then how do you define these songs ??
  
  But thinking of this as Ahirbhairav I see a whole of difference between this and "vidukathaiya" or "ullathil nalla ullam". The "lightening" brings entirely different feelings when hearing the song.
  
  Now as I see it, Raga definition thru Carnatic music occupies a domain which is DIFFERENT from the areas of raga definition in TFM.
  
  Isn't it a fact that it is different - but does not ENCOMPASS TFM (which should be the case for a music system with much more depth) . In fact Carnatic music should redefine itself to encompass such specifics. ??
  
  Ygeetha,
  
  I have been using chakravaham and Ahirbhairavi both for denoting the same raga. Isnt this OK? or is this there a lot of difference ? I mean "ullathil nalla ullam"'s ragam when i say Ahirbhairavi.
  
  Mukund
  
  
• From: YGeetha (@ gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk) on: Thu Nov 5 11:24:56 EST 1998
  
  Mukund: The reason that I stated Chakravakham is because all those songs were Carnatic based, Ahir Bairavhi is the Hindustani counterpart. They are esentially the same, only the rendering style different. I guess in this song, there is no definitive style so it can be termed as either....
  
  Sashi: I too first though of Sarasangi for the song, but listen to 'Alli Sundharavalli' from Kanngalin Vaarthagal, which is in Sarasangi, or Vaana villilum Aahaahahaa, another Sarasangi, IMO, this song sounds too much like Chakravakham, the Carnatic variety and I can't see the Graha Bedha aspect here, Is HARIGOVINDAN around to clarify please?
  
  
• From: Shashi (@ fw1xlate1.mayo.edu) on: Thu Nov 5 12:03:09 EST 1998
  
  Hi YGeetha
  
  I have not heard 'Alli sundharavalli' or Vaana villilum Aahaahahaa; also even the 'Iniya Malargal' was a one time hearing over the web. As you say my first impression was Sarasangi. What is the base note or chord (i.e the note/chord around which the whole song is built or where everything seems to end or rest) for this song? Can somebody clarify?
  
  
  
• From: Murali Sankar (@ grad3.ece.sc.edu) on: Thu Nov 5 16:59:01 EST 1998
  
  Now that the discussion has gone to grhabhedams I would like to get clarified in some points regarding the same.
  
  "Mohanam,sudhdha saavari,hindholam and sudhdha dhanyasi" are a set grahabheda ragas. If we sing "SRGPDS" it is mohanam. The same Mohanam sung as "GPDSRG" is hindholam ,as "DSRGPD" is sudhdha dhanyasi and as "PDSRGP" is sudhdha saaveri. These four ragas are extremely appealing to the general public and IR has scored innumerable songs in allof them. My doubt lies in identifying them. How is it that we fix a "base" swaram for a song when we hear it ? For eg when we hear "Vandhadhey kungumam" we say that it is set in mohanam and not in any of theses ragas mentioned. Assume that there is a human being who has a different ear and fixes his basa swaram in "G" of the song. this means that for him the song would sound like a krithi in hindholam. Does this not defeat the very concept of Raagam ? This question has come out of my personal experience with suddha dhanyaasi and hindholam. For eg Maargazhi poovae. This is one song which has confused me throroughly.
  
  Other songs worth mention are:
  
  (1)Thu jho mere sur mem from Chitchor(Hindi)
  (2)Nila kaigirathu (Indira)
  (3)Nalam Vaazha
  
  Dear Sahashi and Ygeetha , will you please explain this to me?
  
  Regards
  
  Murali Sankar
  
  
• From: Geetha (@ gatekeeper.oracle.co.uk) on: Fri Nov 6 09:24:33 EST 1998
  
  Murali Shankar: It's very hard to describe the flavour of the Raga, with the Graha Bedham, I too had a confusion with Maargali Poove, as it essentially gives the Sudha Dhanyasi touch, but ARR seems to have applied some Graha Bedham principles, hence causing some points to be in Hindholam. He hasn't used PURE Ragam in the song. IR, however has used both Suddha Dhanyasi and Hindholam in Pure form the film "Alaigal Oyvadhillai".....Vilziyil Vizlundhu Idhayam in Suddha Dhanyasi and Darisanam Kidaikkada in Hindholam.......
  
  I can't tell you how I know this, but I guess it is a Ragam catching instinct, if you listen to a lot of Carnatic music, you will get the feel for these Ragams, The use of SGMDNSSNDMGS(Hindolam) and SGMPNSSNPMGS(Sudha Dhanyasi) - It is in the swaras not in the base note, one always takes the base note to be Sa. I would advice listening to Varnams, Krithis, Jathiswarams, Thillanas in these Ragas and it will come to you......I don't think of the base note when I catch Ragam, I just automatically 'grab' the swara structure in the song......
  
  I don't know the songs Thu jho mere sur mem from Chitchor(Hindi) and Nalam Vaazha, but for Nila kaigirathu (Indira) I can't place the ragam, as the swaras sung are Behag sounding......
  Sa Ma Ga Paa Pa Ma Pa Maa Ga Ma Gaa Ri Sa Ni
  Sa Ma Ga Paa Pa Ma Pa Maa
  Ga Ma Dha Dha Ma Ni Ni Dha Sa Ri Sa Ni Dha Pa
  Ga Ma Dha Dha Ma Ni Ni Dha Ga Ri Sa Ni Dha Pa Ma Ga
  
  and.........
  
  Adhoa Poaginradhu Aasai Maegam Mazhaiyaik Kaettuk Kollungal
  Ga Ri Ga Ga Ri Ga Pa Ma Ga
  Idhoa Kaetkinradhu Kuyilin Paadal Isaiyaik Kaettuk Kollungal
  Ga Ri Ga Ga Ri Ga Dha Ma (Ga)
  
  Someone said that it was Tilak Kamod, Hindustani Nalinakanthi, some say it's Maand, whilst the notes indicate a Behag touch......ANY EXPERTS, Please come in and help us.....Thanks in advance..... By the way, Ramaswamy Gireesan/Hari Govindhan, can you interject here and help? Long time no see......
  
  
  
  
  
• From: Shashi (@ fw1xlate1.mayo.edu) on: Fri Nov 6 10:04:35 EST 1998
  
  Hi Geetha
  
  Good comments. The words 'raga catching instict' and 'you will get a feel for these ragas'--are exactly what I meant in my earlier posting about how swaras are important but there are other important details such as swara phrases etc that give the flavour or feel of the raga.
  
  Your comments about the base note being Sa is true--but the question of Murali Sankar is how to fix the Sa?
  
  In other words if you play the swaras of mohanam on your keyboard and then take a tambura and tune it so that the Pa and Sa are actually the D2 and R2 of mohanam and create this drone in your background you will get the feel of mohanam changing to Madhyamavati. Moreover, your mind immediately recognizes the R2 of the mohanam on the keyboard to be the Sa (base note) because of the tambura drone and as you play the notes you will automatically try to end your song in R2.
  In film music, instead of the tambura drone, most of the time the base chord is played that gives a clue to the raga.
  
  
  

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