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Raga of song please

Topic started by Gopal Prasad (@ greed.cs.umass.edu) on Sat May 17 07:42:45 EDT 1997.
All times in EDT +9:30 for IST.

The popular notation used on this page. The twelve notes of an octave are the following.

1   2   3   4   5   6   7  8   9  10  11  12
S  R1  R2  R3  G3  M1  M2  P  D1  D2  D3  N3
       G1  G2                     N1  N2

Download/Upload raga based songs.

"Raga based film songs" Database | Old Database | Indian Classical Music Forum | Hindi Raaga of Songs Thread

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Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: Sundar Atre (@ 130.203.164.194) on: Sat Aug 3 19:01:37 EDT 2002
  
  As a South Indian who was neither raised in the South nor who is living in India for a while it is fun for me to try and relate the bits and pieces I know of film songs in Hindi and Tamil with some familiar Hindustani and Carnatic stuff I have heard. I think my views correspond to MS statement of recognizing and finding patterns (as well as when they dont match) is quite a fun exercise. I was surprised to find some like minded people here for what I thought was an offbeat interest. So I'll hang out here when I can coz for a person like me with little formal music training this is a great resource.
  
  Now Ragapravaham Sundar came with his different perspectives put across in a different manner from what we are used to ... it's stirring things up but it is ok I think ... everyone will adjust a bit and we'll move on ... even this minor conflict adds to the amusement for a passer by :)
  
  ... end of digression
  
  
• From: silkfort (@ 202.140.147.60) on: Sun Aug 4 04:23:16 EDT 2002
  
  Can someone tell the raagas of the songs sung by suddha raghunathan in the movie 'Ivan'?
  
  
• From: Peter Pan (@ ) on: Sun Aug 4 10:46:37 EDT 2002
  
  silkfort,
  It has been discussed earlier in this thread.(browse through the 'Old Responses' link above).
  
  I have a question:
  What exactly is the criterion to add a 'Misra' prefix to a raga?
  Sample this:
  Misra Shivaranjani (e.g. ManjaL Poosum - Sakkarai Thevan), Misra Maand (Anjali Anjali - Duet, Ayiram PookkaL Malarattum - movie by the same name, MD: VS Narasimhan, Nenjam Marappathillai - movie by the same name, MD: Viswanathan Ramamurthy), Misra Yaman, Misra Khamas, Misra Pilu, Misra mAru Behag, Misra BowLi etc.)..
  
  Is it because a raga deviates from its original form by a couple of foreign notes? So, whenever this happens, can one safely classify it under a 'misra' prefix?
  Can experts please clarify? Thanks.
  
  
• From: Sindhuja (@ 203.200.5.53) on: Sun Aug 4 12:10:12 EDT 2002
  
  Peter Pan,this is what AruNA sAirAm had to say abt. the prefix "mishra"-when a rAgA has some extra notes(i.e in addition to its own),the prefix is added.Eg.-mishra mANd takes the note Da1 in addition to Da2(am I right experts?),mishra shivaranjani has the note Ga3 in addition to Ga2.
  So,IMHO,what u've written is right.
  
  
• From: Ragapravaham Sundar (@ 61.11.77.62) on: Sun Aug 4 12:56:25 EDT 2002
  
  MS,
  Why this (Bombay)Ravi confusion? Composer Ravi who had composed the excellent pahadi no. Chaudvin ka chand is the person doing in Malayalam films? I don't think.Clarify.
  Sindhuja & others,
  My idea is not to make you stop this thread. It is only to make it known to everyone as a person who has met several MDs in this connection that MDs do not go for a particular ragam for a song. Most of the ragas in songs are purely accidental.
  Again though MSV told me he never had any raga in composing this song out of curiosity let me know the raga of the song Madhanamaligaiyil...(Rajapart...).I could see traces of Tarangini inthe stanzas.Do you?
  MS, You need not advise me to peruse my postings before sending. It is only what I feel I express.
  
  
• From: Sindhuja (@ 203.200.5.89) on: Sun Aug 4 13:00:01 EDT 2002
  
  R.Sundar,all of us are curious always.... ;-)
  
  
• From: s0 (@ 128.119.85.50) on: Sun Aug 4 13:41:57 EDT 2002
  
  I also feel that "Most of the ragas in songs are purely accidental.", though I wouldn't put it so strongly.
  I think that the ragas in film songs are purely of academic interest only to us. I feel that composers would not want to be shackled by the rules that puristic carnatic music sets, and that they would let their creativity flow without giving any thought to the rules about ragas and composition. otherwise, we would not find the occasional anniya swaram which, from a non-academic point of view, still sounds sweet.
  
  
• From: MS (@ 129.252.25.241) on: Sun Aug 4 16:02:02 EDT 2002
  
  On Ravi - yes he is.
  
  BTW, I did not 'advise' but suggested to you if u need a clarification in that regard.
  
  
• From: Sundar Atre (@ 130.203.161.1) on: Sun Aug 4 22:03:14 EDT 2002
  
  children stop fighting, else I'll resume my poetry:
  sandaigal neeyaana
  sangeetham naanave ...
  
  
• From: Peter Pan (@ 170.140.250.103) on: Sun Aug 4 22:50:01 EDT 2002
  
  Sindhuja,
  Thanks for the clariification.
  I agree, bringing in foreign notes in many light music compositions makes interesting listening, and in a way MD's would not want to be 'bound' to the framework of a raga in such instances.
  
  Annan Oru kOvil EndrAl Tangai oru Deepam andrO from the film Deepam (MD: IR) is said to be in Nandkauns. Can someone please give a brief introduction to this raga? Are there any other compositions? Is there a Carnatic equivalent to this (seemingly) HindustAni raga?
  Thanks.
  
  
• From: Ragapravaham Sundar (@ 61.11.80.74) on: Sun Aug 4 23:46:11 EDT 2002
  
  Peter pan,
  What is this? Annan oru kovil.. is by MSV from the film of same title. Seeing the song you should tell the composer. For a man who relishes Kadalil alaigal... this is bad. REgarding its raga, it is not in Nandkauns. Anybody told you it is? For me it sounds more Charukesi flavour.
  
  
• From: Sundar Atre (@ 130.203.164.250) on: Mon Aug 5 00:11:37 EDT 2002
  
  sigh .. I tried :)
  
  
• From: Sundar Atre (@ 130.203.164.252) on: Mon Aug 5 00:32:54 EDT 2002
  
  My mother mentioned the Jalatarangam performance by Seetha Doraiswamy on TV. Evidently she is in her 70's and mentioned that this is a dying art and she'd be happy to teach anyone who is interested. Might be a good opportunity for someone in Madras.
  
  
• From: Ragapravaham Sundar (@ 61.11.80.74) on: Mon Aug 5 00:39:24 EDT 2002
  
  Sundar Atre,
  Thanks for all your compliments and opinion about me these days. About this jalatarangam why don't you keep these things in a separate page when this thread is meant for FM?
  
  
• From: Sundar Atre (@ 130.203.164.252) on: Mon Aug 5 00:41:27 EDT 2002
  
  Might be interesting to play film music on the jalatarangam, for instance ... ??? Supposed to be an easy and cheap instrument to play once you find the right set of bowls.
  
  
• From: Sundar Atre (@ 130.203.164.252) on: Mon Aug 5 00:44:09 EDT 2002
  
  Quiz: Which music director was first to use jalatarangam in TFM.
  
  
• From: Ragapravaham Sundar (@ 61.11.76.202) on: Mon Aug 5 02:52:16 EDT 2002
  
  Sundar Atre,
  It was Papanasam Sivan. In Thyagabhoomi(1939) the instrument has been used deftly.
  
  
• From: murali (@ 61.1.178.127) on: Mon Aug 5 08:18:08 EDT 2002
  
  being by musician myself, i feel film music has
  its own strength for carnatic music. it's raga based definitely: after all, all music is raga based only . in film music anya swaras kepp creeping in for effect and variety.
  
  
• From: IR (@ 4.64.198.150) on: Mon Aug 5 10:17:37 EDT 2002
  
  Sundhar - you seem to know a lot about film music - why dont you share your knowledge with us instead of picking on us ;-)
  
  
• From: Sundar Atre (@ 130.203.216.54) on: Mon Aug 5 14:32:55 EDT 2002
  
  IR's admirable skills extend beyond music into personnel management :)
  
  
• From: Whatever (@ 206.175.176.2) on: Mon Aug 5 14:56:14 EDT 2002
  
  Ragapravaham Sundar:
  
  Film music has no grammar? It does not have to satisfy a 'purist'? Who is a purist? Does Shruthi Bhedam fall under the category of pure Carnatic music? Does this violate the grammar of CM? What about ragamalika? What about HM ragas like Mishra Yaman? Should ragas which use anya swaras (for instance the kaisiki nishada in Bilahari) be considered impure?
  
  Before making statements like FM has no grammar and pursists might not agree, it is worthwhile to first define the boundaries for each type of music.
  
  
• From: s0 (@ 128.119.85.50) on: Mon Aug 5 19:51:20 EDT 2002
  
  Whatever(@ 206.175.176.2) : It was me (not R Sundar) who said that "composers would not want to be shackled by the rules that puristic carnatic music..", though I didn't say that FM has no grammar. All I'm saying is, FM need not adhere to any grammar and composers can compose at will. The ends will justify the means. Use of anniya swaras is merely an example I quoted. If it (anniya-swara usa) is still within rules, then I have chosen a wrong example to substantiate my point. pardon my ignorance.
  but I hope you get what I'm trying to say.
  
  
• From: s0 (@ 128.119.85.50) on: Mon Aug 5 19:57:11 EDT 2002
  
  typo: anniya-swara usage
  
  
• From: Whatever (@ 206.175.176.2) on: Mon Aug 5 20:43:22 EDT 2002
  
  s0 :
  
  Rarely do you see someone who can own upto something. Hats off to you!
  
  But R.Sundar has echoed similar sentiments - you will see it if you go to old responses - and I am upset at his condescending tone. What I wrote applies equally to him.
  
  I am as great a fan of Carnatic music as I am of Film music. That is not to say that I have master both idioms; I am just very interested in both.
  
  Here is my take on Film Music :
  
  Film music has a grammar in terms of the song situation, the mood, the length and the lyrics.
  
  While it can be argued that the lyrics for film music do not make for great literature, my argument is that many (make that a majority) of Carnatic musicians do not understand the lyrics that they are singing. When that is the case, whether the lyrics in Film music are good is moot.
  
  Secondly, the grammar of Film music dictates -okay, suggests, in some cases :-) - that the song should suit the mood of the visuals. This is not a part of Carnatic music's grammar since visuals are not involved.
  
  Three. It is no mean feat to compose a song which runs for about 4-5 minutes with a pallavi and a couple of charanams (at least) and still maintain the flavour of the song. Please bear in mind that there is no raga alapana or neraval or kalpana swara to beef up the basic song. If the composer cannot distill the essence of the song in that short time, he is history.
  
  Finally, orchestration. This is a complex task. To have, say, 40 different instruments playing together and each retaining its individual flavour and contributing to the overall effect of the song requires a true artist.
  
  Please do not take these as reasons that I have given for Film music to be considered 'greater' than Carnatic music nor vice-versa. Neither is true. Each is a different art form and each has its place. To me, they can co-exist and sometimes I find the one in the other and sometimes not. Either way, I love listening to both. :-)
  
  
• From: Whatever (@ 206.175.176.2) on: Mon Aug 5 20:44:19 EDT 2002
  
  Oops! Please read 'master both idioms' as 'mastered both idioms'.
  
  

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