Home   Forum   Wiki   Notes   Register   FAQ   Sitemap   About Us   Contact Us  

Raga of song please

Topic started by Gopal Prasad (@ greed.cs.umass.edu) on Sat May 17 07:42:45 EDT 1997.
All times in EDT +9:30 for IST.

The popular notation used on this page. The twelve notes of an octave are the following.

1   2   3   4   5   6   7  8   9  10  11  12
S  R1  R2  R3  G3  M1  M2  P  D1  D2  D3  N3
       G1  G2                     N1  N2

Download/Upload raga based songs.

"Raga based film songs" Database | Old Database | Indian Classical Music Forum | Hindi Raaga of Songs Thread

---

Responses:

• Old responses
  
• From: hihi:-) (@ 128.111.113.76) on: Fri Aug 2 14:39:52 EDT 2002
  
  MS: yes, you are correct. not just the chord progression, but the chandham and predominantly, orchestration is what gives a song its feel.
  
  ram: technically, going by the books, meter is not the same as chandham (in day to day usage). meter is more like thALam (grouping and divinding pules/beats) while chandham is more like rhythm ((quasi) repetitious grouping of note durations and rests). i think the article i sent you few weeks ago makes this clear. for example, namma Uru singAri's meter will be in western notation 4/4, in carnatic notation, chathustra jAthi Adhi thALam (4/4 is not the same as chathusra jAthi Adhi thALam, but is happens so for this song), while the chandham is :-)) thannananna thannAna ... :-)
  
  
• From: Ram (@ 134.121.73.124) on: Fri Aug 2 15:02:16 EDT 2002
  
  Thanx aruL for clarifying...I tend to confuse between meter/chandam/nadai quiete often:-)
  
  
• From: IR (@ 4.64.198.150) on: Fri Aug 2 16:54:05 EDT 2002
  
  Vasu - great post - I really liked your interpretation of Bhavam.
  
  A factor to consider would be how the swaras are sung. If KJY sings a Ayyappan bhajan it certainly has a kind of bhakti that may not be felt if somebody else is singing. Many times we hear from critics that a certain performance lacks bhava. Does it mean that swaras lack bhava? No. In this case, it is the singer who failed to transform the swaras into giving rise a bhava. Conversely there are times, when a mood is created just by humming a few swaras for oneself - like that of thodi or bhairavi. The idea is that the swaras and bhavas are an interplay of music and mind.
  
  You said it!
  
  
• From: Vasu (@ 192.35.232.13) on: Fri Aug 2 17:58:56 EDT 2002
  
  IR, MS, aruL:
  Thanks for your analyses from different angles. It is very educational.
  
  aruL: set=combination, i agree, thanks for the correction; also for the chandam - meter nuance. I always thought they are same, since in sanskrit grammar, "chandam" is translated to "meter".
  
  IR:
  :) naan vera enna solla? :)
  
  
• From: Ragapravaham Sundar (@ 61.11.79.225) on: Sat Aug 3 00:39:08 EDT 2002
  
  MS, Sindhu, Vasu & others,
  First of all you all should understand one thing. Classical music is different and film music is different. I have been telling you don't interpret film music the same way you do for classical music. A film MD has got the liberty to do anything and no grammar is involved. His idea is only to make it acceptable to all and he need not satisfy purists. Any elaborate discussion on ragas in film music will actually be an exercise in futility as I have met MDs from SVVenkataraman(Meera fame) to IR and I was kept on insisted by them only this. They don't even remeber the songs they had composed and in most of the cases the avoided discussing ragas of the songs they had composed openly. okay?
  
  
• From: MS (@ 129.252.25.241) on: Sat Aug 3 01:45:16 EDT 2002
  
  so ?
  
  
• From: Ragapravaham Sundar (@ ) on: Sat Aug 3 03:09:34 EDT 2002
  
  Friends,
  If Mohanam is a happy raga means how MSV-TKR could they produce a song like Vanthanaal mudhal(Paavamannippu)in that raga? Is there not pathos in the rendition of that song? Or was the tune copied? Again, Dil hum hum (Rudali) gives a pathos feel. Bhupen(Mohanam?) Hazarika always composes songs in MOhanam. Very interesting indeed.
  
  
• From: sk (@ 202.156.2.7) on: Sat Aug 3 05:42:52 EDT 2002
  
  I have a question regarding the nalamthaanaa
  song of 'Thillaanaa Mohanambal'. The TFM page
  list
  says the song is in Sivaranjani. But the last
  part of the song which goes as
  
  nadandhadhellaam maRandhiruppOm
  nadappadhaiyE ninaiththiruppOm..
  
  appears to be in Kiravani with the notes
  sgrsn. n.srgm
  mdpmp(mg) rgmpd(p)
  mpd pdpdn
  ndnp pdS
  Can someone say if this is right?
  
  
• From: vel (@ 202.88.152.159) on: Sat Aug 3 08:27:24 EDT 2002
  
  IR & hihi :-). Thanks.
  
  I feel ROS has stepped one notch ahead. Its getting equally to having a music guru.
  
  Level yeripochu paa :-)).
  
  
• From: vel (@ 202.88.152.159) on: Sat Aug 3 08:27:39 EDT 2002
  
  IR & hihi :-). Thanks.
  
  I feel ROS has stepped one notch ahead. Its getting equal to having a music guru.
  
  Level yeripochu paa :-)).
  
  
• From: s0 (@ 128.119.85.50) on: Sat Aug 3 10:45:30 EDT 2002
  
  Great discussion in newtfmpage after a long time. Thanks to everyone for the answers.
  Some conclusions that I made:
  1. As far as I can tell from the discussion so far, the swara prayogam (arohanam/avarohanam usage), bhavam and gamakam are the deciding factors for affixing a raga to a song. (is there anything else?) Bhavam is merely the intended consequence and not a defining characteristic. Since our illustrious composers are able to expand the bhavam-repertoire of a raga, and since there is a lack of gamakams in film songs, the attempt to fix ragas to film songs is futile.
  
  2. Obviously, bakthi rasa seems to be the most commonm rasa to be extracted from a raga !!
  
  3. Chord progressions and combo of notes, basically, set the bhavam. it is further improved by factors like meter, sandham, lyrics, singer input...
  
  R. Sundar: "if Mohanam is a happy raga means how MSV-TKR could they produce a song like Vanthanaal mudhal(Paavamannippu)in that raga?" The above conclusions should answer that.
  
  To follow Ram's question on usage of only certain swaras in Shankarabharanam, for example. Isn't it what janyam is all about? I feel that usage of only a certain swaras will mean a different (janya) ragam.
  
  
• From: Sindhuja (@ 203.197.176.4) on: Sat Aug 3 14:26:48 EDT 2002
  
  R.Sundar,
  R u saying that we shud discuss abt. a song only if it is unadultrated?And only such exercises r not "futile"?So what if a song is not purely in 1 rAgA?I don't think we're trying desperately to assign a particular rAgA to a particular song ,when the song isn't actually in 1 rAgA.I guess u haven't looked into many old responses,where we've concluded that many songs r set in multiple rAgAs.So what?We simply,plainly say that this particular song is not 1 single rAgA,but involves many.I don't understand y u call this futile!It's of course perfectly o.k if a film song is not wholly in 1 rAgA-isn't it?
  Any elaborate discussion on ragas in film music will actually be an exercise in futility. >>>>
  So?what next?close down this thread???!!!
  Well,comin to today's kutcheri-today was the last day.Hanuma Thodi by T.N.SeshagOpAlan-All the foll songs were in thOdi-
  1)ErAnApai-varNam
  the speciality was that each of the foll. songs began with each note,starting from Sa-
  2)Arakimpane-Sa,3)Srikrishnam-Ri,4)kArthikEya-Ga,5)ninne nammi-Ma,6)tAye yashodhe-Da,7)neene doddavaNo-Ni,8)meena lOchani-Sa,9)rAgam tAnam pallavi-thOdi. foll. were the songs in the janya rAgAs-Adu pAmbe in punnAgavarALi,ambapAsa in dhanyAsi,mangaLam in asAveri,and a thillAnA in thOdi.nothing much abt. the rAgam.
  END DIGRESSION :-)
  
  
• From: Sundar Atre (@ 130.203.164.45) on: Sat Aug 3 14:33:18 EDT 2002
  
  Sindhuja, a reporting job well done. Nothing starting from Pa?
  
  
• From: Sindhuja (@ 203.197.176.4) on: Sat Aug 3 14:35:15 EDT 2002
  
  illai.Dunno why.
  
  
• From: MS (@ 129.252.25.241) on: Sat Aug 3 15:02:09 EDT 2002
  
  Ragapravaham Sundar:
  
  (1) I suggest that u peruse the posts b4 u reply. Mohanam is a 'soft' raga suitable for inducing romance, sadness, sleep, bhakthi and even shrungaaram. Sometimes even a little gambeeram for example, "poovil vaNdu". There are tons of mohana raga songs. Even the number by seerkaazi - "thiruve en dheviyE vaaraai" is in that raga. Off my head, I can give many examples in film music which are PURELY in mohanam.
  
  (2) Bhupen hazarika does not always compose songs in mohanam. The composer who does this is Ravi(Bombay). In rudaali, the following songs find place:
  
  (a) dil hum hum karen - mohanam
  (b) samay dheere chalo - bhimpalaasi based
  (c) jhooti mooti mithwa - Brindaavan saaranga
  (d) maula oh maula - sindhubhairavi
  
  Ravi who is now an established composer in malayalam also has to his credits the following songs from the movie 'nagakshathangaL':
  
  (a) manjaL prasaadhavum - mohanam
  (b) neeraaduvaan - mohanam
  (c) aareyum bhaava gaayakan - mohanam
  (4) kEvalam mardhya baasha kEtkaadha - aabheri based
  
  He also gave the mesmerising numbers 'chaudhvin kaa chaand ho' and 'chandana lepa sugandham' apart from the above songs.
  
  (3) This page is NOT reserved for discussion whether MDs 'wanted' to tune some songs in particular ragas. They may or not have done it and we dont really care. This is more like an excercise in pattern finding and matching. When I stepped into ROS, I did not know reethi gowLai. But people discussed RG from the context of chinna kaNNan azaikkiraan. I got a little enthused and learnt the lakshaNa of the raga. Thus this discussion just helps to improve our knowledge rather than display the little we have, it with pedagogical authoritativness and try scaring people who are learning through this page. Also, as vel observed it is just 'raga of a song' and is not specific to TFM, though I would definitely request all to discuss more of it. And all those involved in these discussion are not experts (barring IR), but novices trying to appreciate tfm from a diffrent perspective, at the same time helping ourselves, with some knowledge here and there and make life merrier.
  
  So I request you that, if you have any concerns regarding the efficacy of such a discussion, you should rather express it in a tone which is acceptable to everybody and I assure you that your every genuine observation will be counted in. Unless you present a solid reason for WHY we should not discuss the way we have been doing all these years (almost 4) and benefetting, we do not intend to change our pattern.
  
  regards
  
  
• From: Vasu (@ 66.136.198.43) on: Sat Aug 3 17:21:28 EDT 2002
  
  R Sundar,
  Im not sure if your post is in response to any of our replies to s0 or just a general observation. If it was the former, unfortunately I fail to see any connection. Assuming the later, I dont see it was ever claimed that classical music is same as film music in this thread. As much as I know this forum and the people, the longtimers/experts (IR, MS etc) have always maintained that CM is different from FM and FM is very helpful in understanding a few nuances of a raga in order to understand it better. It is true that we may not get a complete picture of a raga from film music, but thats not the goal here. You can see older posts that confirm my opinion. Also, the new comers are often encouraged to understand that film music and classical music are indeed portraying ragas a bit differently, but the same essence of music permeates both.
  
  Any elaborate discussion on ragas in film music will actually be an exercise in futility
  
  Whether this exercise is futile or not depends on what goal is set. If you believe that the goal is to comprehensively understand the nature of the raga - then yes this exercise may not be very fruitful. If the goal is just to discuss the usage of say a particular raga phrase and compare with what we know, then I think even you cannot deny that this exercise is pretty useful. Most of the discussions here pertain to the latter goal. And nobody is claiming the former. Since we are discussing carnatic ragas here, it is inevitable that there references to some kutcheri songs to outline some examples. You should not confuse this with the notion of "classical music and film music are one and the same".
  
  MDs insisting not to discuss the ragas of their song...
  
  MDs may have a different agenda - they may not want to discuss raga of the songs openly in the purest sense for the same reason you have given - there may not be no grammar involved in it. Put yourself in an MD's position. For simplicity sake, lets say you composed a brilliant mohanam and at the end suddenly introduced a m2 to give a sombre feeling. If somebody questions you for this "twist" would you rather discuss your justification for it or will just say "oh! that was an inspiration"?
  
  Hope I was able to clarify your doubts.
  
  

---

List all pages of this thread

Post comments